Aoifinn Devitt: In terms of what my generation is looking for, I think the two key themes is a key theme of flexibility, to have the flexibility to work from home and an employer that can provide that. And also like the theme around who can mostly help safeguard your mental health and make sure that you are not burning out at work.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Jameela Osman, who’s a trainee investment manager in the graduate training program at Baader Gifford. She graduated from Edinburgh University with a first in chemical engineering. Welcome, Jameela, thank you for joining me today.
Jamila Osman: Thank you very much, Elfin. Very, very great to be a part of the 50 Faces podcast, and I’m very glad to be able to talk about my experiences and my journey in investment. So thank you.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I look forward to capturing that, as well as the really interesting program that Beta Gifford has in place to ensure that you all rotate through different segments of the workplace. But before that, can you tell us where you grew up, what you studied, how the world of investment made itself known to you.
Jamila Osman: Yes, so I grew up in Tamale in the northern region of Ghana. That is where I spent 18 years, um, sort of attending kindergarten, junior school, like senior school. So I guess for most part of my education, I was— I think I considered myself a science student. So I really love mathematics and chemistry, and I think that led me to want to study like chemical engineering, but I often think that if I was in Ghana, maybe my career path would be very different just because, I mean, it would likely be medicine because it’s a more secure path, or my parents would probably have given me no choice. So that’s how I kind of think about it. But in terms of just, um, how I ended up at Baylor Gifford, um, I had a really transformational moment during my final year in senior high school, which is in Tamale, and Whilst I was there, I sort of met a few people who were talking about this new upcoming pre-university school that was going to happen. And they sort of said, are you sort of interested? And I kind of said, yes, maybe. This seemed very interesting. So I guess looking back, without sort of that opportunity to go to the African Science Academy, that I wouldn’t have ended up in Edinburgh, or I wouldn’t have ended up studying chemical engineering, or even joining the Bayley Griffith Research Program. It is a fascinating journey to be here, and I did work hard, but also I feel very lucky because there are a lot of people who helped me and guided me to get to where I am today. So yes.
Aoifinn Devitt: Oh, that’s fascinating. And could you tell us a little bit more about the African Science Academy? So did you have to go away to school? Was it local to you? And how did they then shape you through the university path?
Jamila Osman: Yes. So the African Science Academy was just starting out that year in 2016, and they were looking for girls around Africa to come and study A-level mathematics and A-level pure elective maths, pure mathematics, as well as physics. And it was mostly to get women to get into science courses, so do engineering or do computer science. And during that program, it was not mostly only learning about A-levels, it was, it was a lot mentorship around like where career paths— we had very interesting people come give talks. So it was a very transformative journey. And through that, I got that opportunity to think a bit more broadly around what, or what universities I wanted to attend outside of Ghana. And I did apply to a few. I ended up doing not A-levels only, I also did SATs as well. So I had that broad opportunity to not only apply to Ghanaian universities but also abroad. And I was very fortunate enough to get the MasterCard Foundation scholarship at Edinburgh Uni.
Aoifinn Devitt: So yes, and moving then from chemical engineering to investment.
Jamila Osman: So I think coming out of uni, I was sort of like, oh, during my uni process, I thought maybe I’m going to do process design engineer. But coming out of uni, I did a lot of applications, but I started to think maybe I should broaden my net a bit wider because wanting to do process and design engineer, a lot of the courses were expecting me to have like master’s degree and sometimes that made me feel uncomfortable. And I felt, but I still wanted to gain a lot of work and experience. I just didn’t want to continue uni because that’s what I realized during university that I didn’t have a lot of work and experience. And so I was quite keen to get that. A few friends talked about sort of Baillie Gifford as a very interesting place to work. And so I checked out the investment graduate program. And I mean, whilst I wasn’t really thinking very strongly about investment, it was an interesting company enough for, to want me to take a leap. I think one thing that drew me more to the investment research program, they talked a lot about like curiosity, learning a lot, being able to have perspective around the world. That was very, very interesting to me. So I was like, yes, I’m going to apply. And I did. And I didn’t think I would get in, and I got in, so it was great. Great. It was Yes.
Aoifinn Devitt: Oh, fantastic. And could you describe like a typical day in a graduate program or maybe how it’s set up as well?
Jamila Osman: Yes. So I guess the way to think about it, so in the graduate program, you have people from year 1 all the way to year 5. I think it doesn’t really matter which year you are in within the program, the structure of our day tend to look quite similar. From people to people, so the sequence of your tasks might like vary, but the core activities will largely look like very similar. So typically the first thing I do usually would like check my emails. Sometimes I’m commuting into work like 45 minutes to the so if I office, am, that will usually give me a head start to reading up on some of my emails and catching up. And these are not just any emails, they sometimes often contain very important updates from brokers around companies we hold or are considering. So it’s just best to really stay on top of these things so that you don’t miss anything material that could impact like your investments or like companies that you are sort of looking at. And most importantly, like the large part of my day is like split between like research and writing reports. Also, so sometimes it’s all research, sometimes it’s all like just writing, but Because like at Baillie Gifford, we are bottom-up investors, so meaning that our decisions are sort of driven by the fundamentals of individual businesses. So rather than taking what a sell-side analyst will say, that this company has strong fundamentals, my job is to sort of dig deeper and understand exactly why, what are the key strengths. And sometimes that means in a day I might be going down a few rabbit holes because I, because I’m trying to find any information, and I just, I’m very on focused that. And I might just end up getting down a few rabbit holes that I shouldn’t be, but, um, it is essential to make sure that you really understand what is driving sometimes, like, either the growth or the competitive advantage. And so that’s like in the research phase and trying to understand that fundamentals, and you sort of also move on to trying to understand, is this a great business? And sometimes you end up doing financial modeling and valuation to really understand that and But that’s like the research and sort of writing phase. And once you have that, you can have like 20 pages, but you kind of have to condense it to like maybe 4 pages and to clearly be able to articulate why this is a good investment or why this is a good company. And sometimes they’re not synonymous, so you have to be quite clear on that. And another significant part of my day, which I really enjoy sometimes, is like just looking for new ideas. So sometimes that involves like you’re at a screen, so you’ve got like either Bloomberg or Refinitiv icon, and you’re just trying to like look out for companies with particular characteristics, or like you’re speaking to brokers who might be very eager to share ideas that they have with you. And sometimes not every day is spent in the office, so I do get the opportunity to go out to conferences to meet, or Capital Markets Day, to discover like new companies or get to meet company management one-on-one encounter, which is very, sometimes very insightful and valuable just to get a sense of who they are and what their motivations are. So yeah, that is the kind of varied things that we have as an investment analyst at Baillie Gifford. Maybe it’s quite similar to some few places, but I think the depth that we go in our research is very, very unique. That’s fascinating.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I suppose you mentioned the word curiosity earlier, and certainly anyone who is curious, it certainly seems like it would be a very fulfilling role in terms of always change, always something new. When you think of stepping back and looking at your generation, just like to have a few questions of that. There is this concept of, you know, that used to be a pyramid looking like a diamond, in that some of the entry-level roles are being affected, maybe AI, just less hiring, the sense that this— it’s tougher to obtain a graduate job. As you said, it is competitive. How would you say your peers are kind of approaching the job market today? Is there positive change in any way? Is it just getting more difficult? What are you kind of hearing from the ground? And equally, what are your peers looking for in an employer?
Jamila Osman: Yes, I guess maybe on that sort of environment, in terms of the change that is happening, the difficulty in terms of graduate role— I mean, a lot of my peers are finding it very challenging. I found it really challenging to land a graduate role, and it’s just because the pool of roles are probably just getting shorter and shorter. And I mean, I think it’s even harder when you are sort of an international student where you kind of have to consider the right to work situation that even makes it even more challenging. But in terms of how we’re sort of adapting, I think there’s a clear understanding that the job market, it is going through massive transformation, whether it’s for the good or for the bad, who knows. But I think instead of like being worried and sort of frustrated about either AI automating, replacing some entry roles. I, I think the way that some of my friends have approached it is like a bit more with like pragmatism and like trying to really upscale themselves. So there’s kind of like what I see mostly is that like people are more open now to taking like courses. So even when I was in university, I was open to taking an IT course or it was a coding course. So they did that for like a couple of like summers, so you also have an online certification. I think it’s just to make sure that you’re casting your net a bit wider rather than being narrow. So, and in just terms of what my generation is looking for, I think the two key themes is a key theme of flexibility, to have the flexibility to work from home and an employer that can provide that. It would be very attractive to us. And also, like, the theme around who can mostly help safeguard your mental health and make sure that you are not burning out at work. And sometimes it’s really hard to tell when, like, some employers say we’re going to do that for you, but you’re not really sure until you get there. And when it’s not really working out, you find that it is a big challenge, and then you start to even question what they stand for. So I think Just those two things.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, that is a really interesting observation in terms of well-being and where it ranks for your generation. And the flexibility too, do you see that as changing at all? Maybe as the job market gets more challenging, that they may relax that requirement for flexibility? Have people just become less demanding, or do you think actually that is a sea change just in terms of how your generation sees the work-life balance?
Jamila Osman: Maybe on flexibility, I think they might be willing to be flexible as well, because we’re getting into like an environment where there’s a lot of call for coming back to work and an emphasis on being in the office. And that’s not necessarily what we thought maybe it was going to look like. And so that has bred a few like feeling of like discomfort and wanting to push back against that. But I guess it takes two. So there needs to be flexibility on our side, but also flexibility on the employment’s understanding that maybe 4 days, 5 days, it’s too much. Which 3 days is probably like quite optimum for both parties involved. But I guess on mental health, I think that it’s probably like one thing that people might be unwilling to compromise on because an employer who can help safeguard your mental health, that means a lot. It means that you can continue to develop in your role, you feel empowered, you feel like they’re looking out for you. I think it means quite a lot. If you’re probably not getting that at a particular company, you might be looking to move. But again, it’s really hard to move. So, I guess it is a challenge. Yeah.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, really interesting. Thank you for that feedback from, I think, the employee side, which is always helpful to hear just how much these initiatives are being appreciated. And then moving on to some of the strategies you work on within Baillie Gifford, can you talk about some of the strategies that you’ve rotated through? And did any capture your imagination in particular?
Jamila Osman: So yes, I’m on my third year on the graduate program, so that means I’ve done 3 rotations. So I initially rotated on a positive change strategy for a year, then moved on to the international growth strategy, then now I’m on the UK team. And what that means is that I’ve got to experience quite diverse sort of style of investments, but as well as like the universe in which we have the opportunity to invest in. So I mean, with the positive change, it was a bit more global, so it could invest across the entire world, and it had like a dual strategy. I think it was a particularly interesting place in terms of not only investing in companies for strong financial returns but also thinking a bit more carefully about the companies that you’re investing in. That— so the mandate was you wanted to invest in companies whose products and services were making an impact, so they were trying to solve challenges in the environmental across various like communities or regions. So it was particularly interesting. So you are sort of thinking about the financial side, but you’re also thinking about how much of this is impacting the environment or like social inclusion type of situation. So you probably end up thinking about a lot of that, which was very interesting. I think on the international growth side, it was a very different team in terms of the philosophy and it was a lot of like the type of thinking there that you get. It was particularly enriching. Interesting to hear a lot about the different fund managers that you had then, like their investment style. So I found that very, very helpful in, in helping me sort of gain a very different set of investment. It’s a lot of like thinking about the upside, which again, it’s a growth strategy. So again, we’re a bit more optimistic on that side. So it was very, very interesting. Then I, on the UK team, I think on the UK team there’s a lot of focus on doing like very deep, detailed research. And so as a graduate, it’s really good for you. It helps you sort of develop a bit more, but also it forces you— so you only get to write maximum 3.5 pages of reports when you probably have like 20, 30 pages. So again, it forces you to be very concise and think of it more clearly. So that’s the sort of different experiences that I’ve had on those teams, and I think they’ve been quite valuable in helping me sort of grow as an investor.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you certainly had an interesting market backdrop for those first 3 years as a fundamental. I mean, it’s hard to, I suppose it’s been good, it’s been bad, but it’s been concentrated and been recently quite good in terms of the UK. How would you say that that has affected your development as an investor? Just the fact that you may be bottom-up, but then there’s the sheer momentum and concentration of the US tech, for example, those factors maybe that make active stock picking challenging.
Jamila Osman: Yeah, I think one thing that we do is that we focus a lot on like the stock picking and being very active, like you say, picking stocks outside of the index. And I mean, sometimes that can be very like— so returns get really concentrated in a pool of assets, and I mean, that would hurt like active investors like us. I think there’s an emphasis that sometimes this is just a cycle, and its cycles last long, but We’re quite patient investors and we’re willing to sort of wait for that, but we continue to think about active, looking for those best ideas outside of the index and hoping that the market at some point is going to sort of recognize it. And yeah, so I mean, it is sometimes it is a challenge when that happens because again, people’s money is on the line and you’re going to have to explain to them why you don’t hold this and that. But I think sometimes the investors or the clients we have understand our style of investing. And quite patient as well, so that also helps.
Aoifinn Devitt: Certainly, and a brand and a following, a loyalty is key in these markets, which are, I think, going to be cyclical as well, and pro and in favor and out of favor for active strategies. I’d love to talk about diversity now. 3 years into the industry for you, how do you see the diversity in the financial services industry? Maybe the— I suppose how many female PMs you see? As well.
Jamila Osman: I mean, I, I don’t see that many female PMs, if that’s the observation. And I think that, I guess, in terms of why that is, it’s just systematically this hasn’t been an industry where women have been sort of empowered to go into. And I think at Bailey Gifford, there’s the recent grads, you see a lot of like females joining. On the upper end, there’s still quite a lack of like female fund managers and Eventually, maybe that might change in the next 20 30 or years, but for now, I guess that lack of representation makes it really very hard to convince like other younger people to want to continue the job. But also, I think it’s just quite demoralizing to see that because you sometimes— that can get into your mind around like, why is this not the case? And can I really succeed in this role or not. But I think for me it is going to change. I think the structures that you’re putting in place to help women to be able to like balance life as well, because being a fund manager is very intensive and you need a lot of working hours and you’re constantly having to think about your company. So yes, having that sort of support in terms of work-life balance, but also I think in terms of like just putting the systems in place So there has been a lot of like changes to attract women, and I think in Baillie Gifford you can see that that is sort of happening. But there needs to be more, not just like putting targets on like how many female fund managers you have to have, but you have to change the processes that makes it challenging for them to not only be in that role but also be able to want to continue in that role.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s a great, great point. And I suppose looking more broadly at, you say, your entry class What have you seen to be particularly effective in terms of improving that sense of inclusion, whether it’s industry events or just efforts within the firm or within the recruitment process? Anything that you’ve seen to be particularly good at moving the needle?
Jamila Osman: Yeah, I think on that, just improving that sort of representation on the top is very helpful, but also those industry events, like having female fund managers come and speak to you about their experiences and making like sort of demystifying that this is just a male role, I think it’s very sort of helpful. I think even though I’m sort of hopeful that it’s going to change, I feel like it might be a really slow process just because some of these things, they kind of take ages. And also when I think about it, I think about the number of female analysts that you sort of have. And I think that makes me very excited that maybe over the next 10 or 20 years, this is changing. I think it also goes back to the hiring being a bit more inclusive. Like, you now have female-only events, which is trying to sort of get the crowd and try and sort of say, you know what, this is not an environment for male. You could also succeed in this, and I have, and so you can. So I think that recruitment and also just flexibility around working can help attract people into finance.
Aoifinn Devitt: Fantastic. I’d love to just move to some personal reflections just to close us out here. So obviously you haven’t had a very long career yet, so to date, but, you know, early stages. But have there been any particular highs or lows even in the career so far or in the run-up to it?
Jamila Osman: Yes, I think, yeah, like it has been a short period, and I think when you are in sort of an investment research role, it feels even shorter. But there has been sort of like challenges, but there has been also like very interesting points in this career. So I think about developing as an investment analyst where I can communicate a bit more critically and be more concise and have clarity in my communication is an area that I’m sort of developing, and it is quite important for that role. And I think you sort of have to be very incredibly lucky to just go through like 3 years without any sort of challenges. So I think one thing that I’m learning is that you kind of have to embrace the discomfort that comes with this role. I did not have a finance background, and so like sometimes it will probably take me longer to get something compared to somebody else. So I think it’s just a recognition that even though there might be challenges, this job is particularly like interesting in terms of the companies you meet, the conferences you go to, the intellectual ability. So like you just learning about different sectors, it is really like a very interesting job. So I’m quite grateful for that, and working at Baylor Gifford has also been quite helpful. In terms of helping me develop in certain areas. So I mean, I think that my mindset is that yes, some of these challenges have to happen for you to sort of move forward.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, that’s fantastic. And mentors or sponsors, have you had any so far, and how important do you think it is to have them?
Jamila Osman: So I’ve had mentors throughout my career, and I mean, so there are mentors that you probably get from the company, but also like you choosing someone to really mentor you and guide In terms of the second bracket, it’s just like this year that I’ve thought a bit more around that, and I’ve had people who have been quite encouraging in terms of like, you know what, this obstacle that you’re facing is not only you, someone has also been through that before. And like what really matters is like your mindset and wanting to sort of do this. So like it’s sort of like stepping up and the challenge. Taking it head-on rather than sort of like trying to just look past it or behave like it doesn’t exist. So yeah, I think in terms of mentorship and also just mentors around helping me think about investing as well as an analyst, so I think, yeah, I’ve had quite a few and they really have been quite helpful in either just helping to empower me but, or helping me to think a bit more differently about some of the stocks I’m looking at, I guess.
Aoifinn Devitt: I love that. Then my last question is around any creed or motto that you live by, and I’m just going to harken as an example another wonderful guest we had 5 years ago, and she was also from Ghana. Her name is Justina Ete, and her motto was there, “Lift as you climb.” And I think it really, for me, captured what she was doing in her role in finance and how she was lifting others as she climbed. And I can see you’re already doing the same by the involvement you’re doing, for example, in the graduate recruitment drive that I’ve seen your picture there with Giffords. So do you have any creed or motto of your own or any words of wisdom to leave us with?
Jamila Osman: I think for me it’s mostly that it’s around like that things are not going to be a straight line, and along the ways you have to embrace the challenges. If you are not able to sort of stand and live up to those challenges, then they overcome you. So you kind of have to overcome that, otherwise you can’t move forward. So I think for me it’s more like embrace the discomfort and try and overcome them. Otherwise, you, you get overcome.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, that’s fantastic. And I have to say, I feel the next generation is in very good hands when I speak to the likes of you. And what really does also cheer me is to hear the focus you’re putting at a very early stage on averting burnout, ensuring you’re optimizing for presenting your best self in the work you do. Thank you so much for coming here, for sharing these early years of your journey with us, and for giving us lots of food for thought as employers ourselves.
Jamila Osman: Thank you very much for having me. It’s a very interesting conversation.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guests.
Jamila Osman: Rest.
Aoifinn Devitt: In terms of what my generation is looking for, I think the two key themes is a key theme of flexibility, to have the flexibility to work from home and an employer that can provide that. And also like the theme around who can mostly help safeguard your mental health and make sure that you are not burning out at work.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Jameela Osman, who’s a trainee investment manager in the graduate training program at Baader Gifford. She graduated from Edinburgh University with a first in chemical engineering. Welcome, Jameela, thank you for joining me today.
Jamila Osman: Thank you very much, Elfin. Very, very great to be a part of the 50 Faces podcast, and I’m very glad to be able to talk about my experiences and my journey in investment. So thank you.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I look forward to capturing that, as well as the really interesting program that Beta Gifford has in place to ensure that you all rotate through different segments of the workplace. But before that, can you tell us where you grew up, what you studied, how the world of investment made itself known to you.
Jamila Osman: Yes, so I grew up in Tamale in the northern region of Ghana. That is where I spent 18 years, um, sort of attending kindergarten, junior school, like senior school. So I guess for most part of my education, I was— I think I considered myself a science student. So I really love mathematics and chemistry, and I think that led me to want to study like chemical engineering, but I often think that if I was in Ghana, maybe my career path would be very different just because, I mean, it would likely be medicine because it’s a more secure path, or my parents would probably have given me no choice. So that’s how I kind of think about it. But in terms of just, um, how I ended up at Baylor Gifford, um, I had a really transformational moment during my final year in senior high school, which is in Tamale, and Whilst I was there, I sort of met a few people who were talking about this new upcoming pre-university school that was going to happen. And they sort of said, are you sort of interested? And I kind of said, yes, maybe. This seemed very interesting. So I guess looking back, without sort of that opportunity to go to the African Science Academy, that I wouldn’t have ended up in Edinburgh, or I wouldn’t have ended up studying chemical engineering, or even joining the Bayley Griffith Research Program. It is a fascinating journey to be here, and I did work hard, but also I feel very lucky because there are a lot of people who helped me and guided me to get to where I am today. So yes.
Aoifinn Devitt: Oh, that’s fascinating. And could you tell us a little bit more about the African Science Academy? So did you have to go away to school? Was it local to you? And how did they then shape you through the university path?
Jamila Osman: Yes. So the African Science Academy was just starting out that year in 2016, and they were looking for girls around Africa to come and study A-level mathematics and A-level pure elective maths, pure mathematics, as well as physics. And it was mostly to get women to get into science courses, so do engineering or do computer science. And during that program, it was not mostly only learning about A-levels, it was, it was a lot mentorship around like where career paths— we had very interesting people come give talks. So it was a very transformative journey. And through that, I got that opportunity to think a bit more broadly around what, or what universities I wanted to attend outside of Ghana. And I did apply to a few. I ended up doing not A-levels only, I also did SATs as well. So I had that broad opportunity to not only apply to Ghanaian universities but also abroad. And I was very fortunate enough to get the MasterCard Foundation scholarship at Edinburgh Uni.
Aoifinn Devitt: So yes, and moving then from chemical engineering to investment.
Jamila Osman: So I think coming out of uni, I was sort of like, oh, during my uni process, I thought maybe I’m going to do process design engineer. But coming out of uni, I did a lot of applications, but I started to think maybe I should broaden my net a bit wider because wanting to do process and design engineer, a lot of the courses were expecting me to have like master’s degree and sometimes that made me feel uncomfortable. And I felt, but I still wanted to gain a lot of work and experience. I just didn’t want to continue uni because that’s what I realized during university that I didn’t have a lot of work and experience. And so I was quite keen to get that. A few friends talked about sort of Baillie Gifford as a very interesting place to work. And so I checked out the investment graduate program. And I mean, whilst I wasn’t really thinking very strongly about investment, it was an interesting company enough for, to want me to take a leap. I think one thing that drew me more to the investment research program, they talked a lot about like curiosity, learning a lot, being able to have perspective around the world. That was very, very interesting to me. So I was like, yes, I’m going to apply. And I did. And I didn’t think I would get in, and I got in, so it was great. Great. It was Yes.
Aoifinn Devitt: Oh, fantastic. And could you describe like a typical day in a graduate program or maybe how it’s set up as well?
Jamila Osman: Yes. So I guess the way to think about it, so in the graduate program, you have people from year 1 all the way to year 5. I think it doesn’t really matter which year you are in within the program, the structure of our day tend to look quite similar. From people to people, so the sequence of your tasks might like vary, but the core activities will largely look like very similar. So typically the first thing I do usually would like check my emails. Sometimes I’m commuting into work like 45 minutes to the so if I office, am, that will usually give me a head start to reading up on some of my emails and catching up. And these are not just any emails, they sometimes often contain very important updates from brokers around companies we hold or are considering. So it’s just best to really stay on top of these things so that you don’t miss anything material that could impact like your investments or like companies that you are sort of looking at. And most importantly, like the large part of my day is like split between like research and writing reports. Also, so sometimes it’s all research, sometimes it’s all like just writing, but Because like at Baillie Gifford, we are bottom-up investors, so meaning that our decisions are sort of driven by the fundamentals of individual businesses. So rather than taking what a sell-side analyst will say, that this company has strong fundamentals, my job is to sort of dig deeper and understand exactly why, what are the key strengths. And sometimes that means in a day I might be going down a few rabbit holes because I, because I’m trying to find any information, and I just, I’m very on focused that. And I might just end up getting down a few rabbit holes that I shouldn’t be, but, um, it is essential to make sure that you really understand what is driving sometimes, like, either the growth or the competitive advantage. And so that’s like in the research phase and trying to understand that fundamentals, and you sort of also move on to trying to understand, is this a great business? And sometimes you end up doing financial modeling and valuation to really understand that and But that’s like the research and sort of writing phase. And once you have that, you can have like 20 pages, but you kind of have to condense it to like maybe 4 pages and to clearly be able to articulate why this is a good investment or why this is a good company. And sometimes they’re not synonymous, so you have to be quite clear on that. And another significant part of my day, which I really enjoy sometimes, is like just looking for new ideas. So sometimes that involves like you’re at a screen, so you’ve got like either Bloomberg or Refinitiv icon, and you’re just trying to like look out for companies with particular characteristics, or like you’re speaking to brokers who might be very eager to share ideas that they have with you. And sometimes not every day is spent in the office, so I do get the opportunity to go out to conferences to meet, or Capital Markets Day, to discover like new companies or get to meet company management one-on-one encounter, which is very, sometimes very insightful and valuable just to get a sense of who they are and what their motivations are. So yeah, that is the kind of varied things that we have as an investment analyst at Baillie Gifford. Maybe it’s quite similar to some few places, but I think the depth that we go in our research is very, very unique. That’s fascinating.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I suppose you mentioned the word curiosity earlier, and certainly anyone who is curious, it certainly seems like it would be a very fulfilling role in terms of always change, always something new. When you think of stepping back and looking at your generation, just like to have a few questions of that. There is this concept of, you know, that used to be a pyramid looking like a diamond, in that some of the entry-level roles are being affected, maybe AI, just less hiring, the sense that this— it’s tougher to obtain a graduate job. As you said, it is competitive. How would you say your peers are kind of approaching the job market today? Is there positive change in any way? Is it just getting more difficult? What are you kind of hearing from the ground? And equally, what are your peers looking for in an employer?
Jamila Osman: Yes, I guess maybe on that sort of environment, in terms of the change that is happening, the difficulty in terms of graduate role— I mean, a lot of my peers are finding it very challenging. I found it really challenging to land a graduate role, and it’s just because the pool of roles are probably just getting shorter and shorter. And I mean, I think it’s even harder when you are sort of an international student where you kind of have to consider the right to work situation that even makes it even more challenging. But in terms of how we’re sort of adapting, I think there’s a clear understanding that the job market, it is going through massive transformation, whether it’s for the good or for the bad, who knows. But I think instead of like being worried and sort of frustrated about either AI automating, replacing some entry roles. I, I think the way that some of my friends have approached it is like a bit more with like pragmatism and like trying to really upscale themselves. So there’s kind of like what I see mostly is that like people are more open now to taking like courses. So even when I was in university, I was open to taking an IT course or it was a coding course. So they did that for like a couple of like summers, so you also have an online certification. I think it’s just to make sure that you’re casting your net a bit wider rather than being narrow. So, and in just terms of what my generation is looking for, I think the two key themes is a key theme of flexibility, to have the flexibility to work from home and an employer that can provide that. It would be very attractive to us. And also, like, the theme around who can mostly help safeguard your mental health and make sure that you are not burning out at work. And sometimes it’s really hard to tell when, like, some employers say we’re going to do that for you, but you’re not really sure until you get there. And when it’s not really working out, you find that it is a big challenge, and then you start to even question what they stand for. So I think Just those two things.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, that is a really interesting observation in terms of well-being and where it ranks for your generation. And the flexibility too, do you see that as changing at all? Maybe as the job market gets more challenging, that they may relax that requirement for flexibility? Have people just become less demanding, or do you think actually that is a sea change just in terms of how your generation sees the work-life balance?
Jamila Osman: Maybe on flexibility, I think they might be willing to be flexible as well, because we’re getting into like an environment where there’s a lot of call for coming back to work and an emphasis on being in the office. And that’s not necessarily what we thought maybe it was going to look like. And so that has bred a few like feeling of like discomfort and wanting to push back against that. But I guess it takes two. So there needs to be flexibility on our side, but also flexibility on the employment’s understanding that maybe 4 days, 5 days, it’s too much. Which 3 days is probably like quite optimum for both parties involved. But I guess on mental health, I think that it’s probably like one thing that people might be unwilling to compromise on because an employer who can help safeguard your mental health, that means a lot. It means that you can continue to develop in your role, you feel empowered, you feel like they’re looking out for you. I think it means quite a lot. If you’re probably not getting that at a particular company, you might be looking to move. But again, it’s really hard to move. So, I guess it is a challenge. Yeah.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, really interesting. Thank you for that feedback from, I think, the employee side, which is always helpful to hear just how much these initiatives are being appreciated. And then moving on to some of the strategies you work on within Baillie Gifford, can you talk about some of the strategies that you’ve rotated through? And did any capture your imagination in particular?
Jamila Osman: So yes, I’m on my third year on the graduate program, so that means I’ve done 3 rotations. So I initially rotated on a positive change strategy for a year, then moved on to the international growth strategy, then now I’m on the UK team. And what that means is that I’ve got to experience quite diverse sort of style of investments, but as well as like the universe in which we have the opportunity to invest in. So I mean, with the positive change, it was a bit more global, so it could invest across the entire world, and it had like a dual strategy. I think it was a particularly interesting place in terms of not only investing in companies for strong financial returns but also thinking a bit more carefully about the companies that you’re investing in. That— so the mandate was you wanted to invest in companies whose products and services were making an impact, so they were trying to solve challenges in the environmental across various like communities or regions. So it was particularly interesting. So you are sort of thinking about the financial side, but you’re also thinking about how much of this is impacting the environment or like social inclusion type of situation. So you probably end up thinking about a lot of that, which was very interesting. I think on the international growth side, it was a very different team in terms of the philosophy and it was a lot of like the type of thinking there that you get. It was particularly enriching. Interesting to hear a lot about the different fund managers that you had then, like their investment style. So I found that very, very helpful in, in helping me sort of gain a very different set of investment. It’s a lot of like thinking about the upside, which again, it’s a growth strategy. So again, we’re a bit more optimistic on that side. So it was very, very interesting. Then I, on the UK team, I think on the UK team there’s a lot of focus on doing like very deep, detailed research. And so as a graduate, it’s really good for you. It helps you sort of develop a bit more, but also it forces you— so you only get to write maximum 3.5 pages of reports when you probably have like 20, 30 pages. So again, it forces you to be very concise and think of it more clearly. So that’s the sort of different experiences that I’ve had on those teams, and I think they’ve been quite valuable in helping me sort of grow as an investor.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you certainly had an interesting market backdrop for those first 3 years as a fundamental. I mean, it’s hard to, I suppose it’s been good, it’s been bad, but it’s been concentrated and been recently quite good in terms of the UK. How would you say that that has affected your development as an investor? Just the fact that you may be bottom-up, but then there’s the sheer momentum and concentration of the US tech, for example, those factors maybe that make active stock picking challenging.
Jamila Osman: Yeah, I think one thing that we do is that we focus a lot on like the stock picking and being very active, like you say, picking stocks outside of the index. And I mean, sometimes that can be very like— so returns get really concentrated in a pool of assets, and I mean, that would hurt like active investors like us. I think there’s an emphasis that sometimes this is just a cycle, and its cycles last long, but We’re quite patient investors and we’re willing to sort of wait for that, but we continue to think about active, looking for those best ideas outside of the index and hoping that the market at some point is going to sort of recognize it. And yeah, so I mean, it is sometimes it is a challenge when that happens because again, people’s money is on the line and you’re going to have to explain to them why you don’t hold this and that. But I think sometimes the investors or the clients we have understand our style of investing. And quite patient as well, so that also helps.
Aoifinn Devitt: Certainly, and a brand and a following, a loyalty is key in these markets, which are, I think, going to be cyclical as well, and pro and in favor and out of favor for active strategies. I’d love to talk about diversity now. 3 years into the industry for you, how do you see the diversity in the financial services industry? Maybe the— I suppose how many female PMs you see? As well.
Jamila Osman: I mean, I, I don’t see that many female PMs, if that’s the observation. And I think that, I guess, in terms of why that is, it’s just systematically this hasn’t been an industry where women have been sort of empowered to go into. And I think at Bailey Gifford, there’s the recent grads, you see a lot of like females joining. On the upper end, there’s still quite a lack of like female fund managers and Eventually, maybe that might change in the next 20 30 or years, but for now, I guess that lack of representation makes it really very hard to convince like other younger people to want to continue the job. But also, I think it’s just quite demoralizing to see that because you sometimes— that can get into your mind around like, why is this not the case? And can I really succeed in this role or not. But I think for me it is going to change. I think the structures that you’re putting in place to help women to be able to like balance life as well, because being a fund manager is very intensive and you need a lot of working hours and you’re constantly having to think about your company. So yes, having that sort of support in terms of work-life balance, but also I think in terms of like just putting the systems in place So there has been a lot of like changes to attract women, and I think in Baillie Gifford you can see that that is sort of happening. But there needs to be more, not just like putting targets on like how many female fund managers you have to have, but you have to change the processes that makes it challenging for them to not only be in that role but also be able to want to continue in that role.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s a great, great point. And I suppose looking more broadly at, you say, your entry class What have you seen to be particularly effective in terms of improving that sense of inclusion, whether it’s industry events or just efforts within the firm or within the recruitment process? Anything that you’ve seen to be particularly good at moving the needle?
Jamila Osman: Yeah, I think on that, just improving that sort of representation on the top is very helpful, but also those industry events, like having female fund managers come and speak to you about their experiences and making like sort of demystifying that this is just a male role, I think it’s very sort of helpful. I think even though I’m sort of hopeful that it’s going to change, I feel like it might be a really slow process just because some of these things, they kind of take ages. And also when I think about it, I think about the number of female analysts that you sort of have. And I think that makes me very excited that maybe over the next 10 or 20 years, this is changing. I think it also goes back to the hiring being a bit more inclusive. Like, you now have female-only events, which is trying to sort of get the crowd and try and sort of say, you know what, this is not an environment for male. You could also succeed in this, and I have, and so you can. So I think that recruitment and also just flexibility around working can help attract people into finance.
Aoifinn Devitt: Fantastic. I’d love to just move to some personal reflections just to close us out here. So obviously you haven’t had a very long career yet, so to date, but, you know, early stages. But have there been any particular highs or lows even in the career so far or in the run-up to it?
Jamila Osman: Yes, I think, yeah, like it has been a short period, and I think when you are in sort of an investment research role, it feels even shorter. But there has been sort of like challenges, but there has been also like very interesting points in this career. So I think about developing as an investment analyst where I can communicate a bit more critically and be more concise and have clarity in my communication is an area that I’m sort of developing, and it is quite important for that role. And I think you sort of have to be very incredibly lucky to just go through like 3 years without any sort of challenges. So I think one thing that I’m learning is that you kind of have to embrace the discomfort that comes with this role. I did not have a finance background, and so like sometimes it will probably take me longer to get something compared to somebody else. So I think it’s just a recognition that even though there might be challenges, this job is particularly like interesting in terms of the companies you meet, the conferences you go to, the intellectual ability. So like you just learning about different sectors, it is really like a very interesting job. So I’m quite grateful for that, and working at Baylor Gifford has also been quite helpful. In terms of helping me develop in certain areas. So I mean, I think that my mindset is that yes, some of these challenges have to happen for you to sort of move forward.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, that’s fantastic. And mentors or sponsors, have you had any so far, and how important do you think it is to have them?
Jamila Osman: So I’ve had mentors throughout my career, and I mean, so there are mentors that you probably get from the company, but also like you choosing someone to really mentor you and guide In terms of the second bracket, it’s just like this year that I’ve thought a bit more around that, and I’ve had people who have been quite encouraging in terms of like, you know what, this obstacle that you’re facing is not only you, someone has also been through that before. And like what really matters is like your mindset and wanting to sort of do this. So like it’s sort of like stepping up and the challenge. Taking it head-on rather than sort of like trying to just look past it or behave like it doesn’t exist. So yeah, I think in terms of mentorship and also just mentors around helping me think about investing as well as an analyst, so I think, yeah, I’ve had quite a few and they really have been quite helpful in either just helping to empower me but, or helping me to think a bit more differently about some of the stocks I’m looking at, I guess.
Aoifinn Devitt: I love that. Then my last question is around any creed or motto that you live by, and I’m just going to harken as an example another wonderful guest we had 5 years ago, and she was also from Ghana. Her name is Justina Ete, and her motto was there, “Lift as you climb.” And I think it really, for me, captured what she was doing in her role in finance and how she was lifting others as she climbed. And I can see you’re already doing the same by the involvement you’re doing, for example, in the graduate recruitment drive that I’ve seen your picture there with Giffords. So do you have any creed or motto of your own or any words of wisdom to leave us with?
Jamila Osman: I think for me it’s mostly that it’s around like that things are not going to be a straight line, and along the ways you have to embrace the challenges. If you are not able to sort of stand and live up to those challenges, then they overcome you. So you kind of have to overcome that, otherwise you can’t move forward. So I think for me it’s more like embrace the discomfort and try and overcome them. Otherwise, you, you get overcome.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, that’s fantastic. And I have to say, I feel the next generation is in very good hands when I speak to the likes of you. And what really does also cheer me is to hear the focus you’re putting at a very early stage on averting burnout, ensuring you’re optimizing for presenting your best self in the work you do. Thank you so much for coming here, for sharing these early years of your journey with us, and for giving us lots of food for thought as employers ourselves.
Jamila Osman: Thank you very much for having me. It’s a very interesting conversation.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guests.
Jamila Osman: Rest.
