Aoifinn Devitt: Don’t focus on no, focus on earning your yes.
Andrew Osayemi: Let’s hear how our next guest faced his fair share of nos but earned his yes over and over again in both the financial trading and TV production worlds. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Andrew Osayemi, who is a specialist diversity recruiter at Rare Recruitment and the creator of the Netflix TV show Meet the Adebanyos. He started his career as a Citi trader and then took the plunge into starting a TV production company MTA Productions, although as he claims, he did not know anything about TV. He’s the author of the book, How My Disastrous Teenage Love Life Will Get You Your Dream Job. Welcome, Andrew. Thanks for joining me today.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you for having me. It’s an absolute pleasure.
Andrew Osayemi: I think we have to start by talking about your background, where you grew up and how you came to enter the world of trading in the city. Let’s start there.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, no, I have like very humble, humble beginnings, born and raised in a place in London, Southeast London called Peckham, to Nigerian immigrants. And I say immigrants because, you know, they came to the UK as students and didn’t leave. Set up a whole new life, a whole new world in the UK. It was really tough for them. So didn’t have much growing up, lived in council estates in Peckham while we were really young. But just the vibe, the community, just the opportunities that life gave us, you know, I’m always forever grateful. How I ended up in trading was just through like different things that happened in my life. So like taking you back, I was at like one of the worst probably primary schools in London, and I remember one day my mom gets a phone call and says, Andrew, headmaster says you need to come into the school. And you can imagine like this is like the ’80s or even ’90s, I think late ’80s, early ’90s. And when you get a phone call at home, you know something bad has happened. So I was disciplined before the meeting even happened the next day. So we come into the meeting, we sit down, and the teacher says to my mom that, look, Andrew scored one of the highest marks in a maths competition in the whole of London. And my mom was like, what, are you kidding me? And I was sitting there thinking, wow, I’ve been disciplined for nothing. But it was that day, what the teacher said to my mum was, “Andrew has potential. He just needs to figure out how to make it count.” And I think that was something, and I always give credit to my mum, she held on to that saying that someone saw something in her son, that he had potential. So she got me to apply to different social ability schemes, which eventually helped me to get a full-paid private school scholarship, and that then helped me to go to university, to an amazing university, Warwick University. And that’s how I ended up in trading. So a roundabout way of saying that through seizing on life’s opportunities, I was able to, to get to where I was in trading.
Andrew Osayemi: And when you moved into the city, what impressions did you have at that time of the city, of the level of diversity in it, maybe in the trading sector?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I, I mean, I’ll be completely honest, I thought it was— I was going into a majority white male world. Let’s call a spade a spade. And this was mainly for a couple of reasons. One, I was lucky enough to get an internship. And again, story of my internship, I had no clue what investment banking was, absolutely no clue. I remember one of my friends telling me that these investment banks at Warwick have the best like food at their Insight events. So we had no clue, but we were hungry, we’re students, so we turn up for these events just to eat the food. Like, lovely spread, as you can imagine, you know, all different types of food, food that as students we weren’t even privileged to have. And I just remember seeing someone on the stage, a white British guy who sounded just like me. So that’s what caught my attention because, you know, I’ve been to many events where people didn’t sound like me. So white guy who sounded like me and he talked about this thing called trading. And what attracted me to it, I mean, despite the fact that I knew and felt that there may not be anyone that looked like me, was he said that, you know, in trading, numbers don’t lie. And that for me was like, okay, whether there’s going to be discrimination or not, like, you’re going to be judged by your numbers. And that was something that was really appealing to me, that you’re going to— you have your chance to create your own success based on the numbers. That you bring in. And that’s how I ended up in the internship and then in trading, picking trading as opposed to anything else.
Andrew Osayemi: And did you encounter any particular obstacles? And what I’m thinking, I know you know Justin Anekesu, who is also a guest on this podcast. He spoke a little bit about code switching, basically just having to speak differently, maybe just consciously make an effort to fit in. Did you encounter any obstacles like that?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, at the beginning. At the beginning, and it was to my detriment. I remember it was in my internship, maybe the first week. I sat down, I was so excited, I’ve got this internship. I go to my mom and dad, and obviously they have no clue. They have absolutely no clue what investment banks are like. They don’t know anyone who’s worked at an investment bank. None of their friends work in investment. We have no clue. So they literally just said, look, go in there, don’t say a word, just say yes sir, yes ma’am, and almost be like a mouse. Like, just do all you can just to not bring attention to yourself. So for the first, like, 3 or 4 days of me being in internship, that’s what I did. I went in, you know, I was very, very polite, no expression of who I was. It’s yes sir, yes ma’am, got on with my work. And it was only until one of my line managers pulled me to the side and he said, look, Andrew, I’m gonna be honest with you, you’re not gonna last. On this desk if you don’t talk. And I said— and I was like, what do you mean? Like, I am talking, I’m being polite. He said, no, we need to know who you are, or if not, we’re not going to be able to go forward with you. And that sparked something in me where— and this happens many times through my— throughout my life. I said, what’s the worst that can happen? I said, you know what, I’m going to show the desk who I am. So I started to tell people about the fact that I’m a DJ, I like to play poker, I like to travel, go to clubs, go to raves and parties. And through that experience, people got to be more invested in me. And that was my first lesson of you need to be who you are. And also, I was lucky to find a division in trading where being a little bit rough around the edges was okay. Whereas I think if I’d gone into something a bit more corporate, like asset management or corporate finance, I may have found it more difficult. But being in trading, it was actually encouraged to be who you are. And I think by being who I was, I was able to flourish and get the graduate job.
Andrew Osayemi: That’s a really interesting point, actually. I think we often speak about authenticity and bringing ourselves to work because it benefits us, it liberates us, the individual. But I think the point you’re making, which is really interesting, is that it also very much improves inclusion and very much improves one’s success in an organization when they’re authentic, because it ultimately invites more relationships and more bonding.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s like— I remember going to meet my father-in-law and he said, to me, and I was very quiet. Same thing, very quiet. And he says to me, I don’t trust a man who doesn’t speak. I was like, oh, okay, let— I just started to speak. And it’s the same at work sometimes, on both sides, and the people who are majority or the people who are the minority. If people don’t speak to each other, people don’t share their different experiences and feel comfortable doing that, I think the inclusion suffers. So, by me being who I was and being, like, not afraid and being proud of who I was, that really helped.
Andrew Osayemi: So, on that point of authenticity, how do you find— so many people have different accents, say, whether it be from the north of England, south of London, and that may cause them to sound different from other people in the city. Do you think that that is a barrier still?
Aoifinn Devitt: I absolutely do think it’s a barrier. I mean, mostly, It’s an internal barrier for the person. Again, like I said earlier, I was almost struck with fear when I first got into my first internship. Like my mom and dad said, you know, don’t say anything, just say yes, sir, yes, ma’am. And I know I felt comfortable doing that because I was also scared of what my voice would sound like. Everyone sounded different. I had a South London accent. So I was struck with fear. And I think many people I speak to, whether they come from, you know, north of England, it could be come like in America when I was in New York, it could be people who come from the south of America, anywhere where accent is different from the norm. Yeah, you know, you could have, you know, an international accent. He— you’re struggling with it internally. It affects you when you maybe want to do public speaking at meetings, when you want to stand up, maybe when you want to go for leadership positions. Everything in your brain is telling you, people are judging me, um, people are laughing at me, uh, people don’t think I belong. So that internal battle is what a lot of people struggle with. And I think this is why it’s important for firms, especially when they’re going, they’re doing recruiting at different universities or trying to encourage to have different, um, types of speakers on panels, you know. I mean, it could be that it’s one thing if everyone looks the same, but then if everyone sounds the same, like, you’re really, really eliminating people or, or making it difficult for people to feel like they belong just because people come from different backgrounds. And I think I’ve spoken to people who have gone to accent coaches trying to either enhance a particular accent or to kind of like, you know, decrease the tonality of an accent. You know, even— I’ve I even looked at that. I looked at that once. I remember I went to one acting— to one coach, accent coach, and, you know, I did a session and he just said, look, Andrew, just focus on being authentically you in a professional way. I said, okay, what does that mean? He said, just focus, you know, you know, pronounce your T’s and your I’s and your ing’s, and, and that’s it, because you’re overthinking it and that’s holding you back. So yeah, so absolutely, I think it does hold people back. I think there needs to be more diversity of voices or accents, and people need to encourage, um, people that come from a different area or uh, to, background, to, to be themselves And I think most people know, you know, if you’re professional and you— it shouldn’t really matter what you sound like, um, as long as obviously you’re not using slang or anything like that. But it definitely is a hindrance, and it’s something that many people struggle with overcoming.
Andrew Osayemi: I’d love to then move from that discussion into discussing your move into TV production. Can you walk us through that move?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I’m gonna share something which, I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever really shared or gone into the depth on a podcast before, but I essentially moved into TV production because of love. And I know it’s gonna sound weird, but it got to a stage I was in New York doing really, really well for myself. So you think about this, a young boy who’d come from living in council estate flat with 2 bedrooms, and there’s about 8 adults and many kids living in one tiny flat 2, I’m now living in New York in like what would be classed as like a penthouse you apartment, like, know, overlooking the East River in Manhattan, and fully paid for by the bank I worked for. And I was one of the FX forward traders representing the bank in New York. And it got to a stage— and this is financial crisis time, so this is like 2008, 2009— and it got to a stage where I get the phone call from the head of FX in London, and he says to me, Andrew, we want to offer you 2-year contract to stay in New York. Everything’s going to be the same, fully paid, more money. This is fantastic. Everyone else in London is losing their job. Andrew, stay in New York. This is a great deal. I get off the phone and I call my girlfriend who’s in London at the time and says, look, honey, I think I’m going to stay here for another 2 years. And she said, if you stay for another 2 years, we’re were over. So I had that decision to make. Ah, do I go for love? Do I go for the money? Do I go for love? Do I go for money? And eventually I said, look, I’m going to come back to London and I’ll go for love. And that decision didn’t go quite well, didn’t go down well with my bosses. They weren’t happy. They warned me multiple times to say there’s no position in London, there’s no desk for you, there’s no seat, there’s no trading seat. But I still came back. And within 6 months, I was let go. So that decision cost me my job. But what it did do is allow me to dig deep and then go back and look at what was some of the dreams I had before I came into banking. And some of these dreams were you like, know, things like I’ve done— write a book. Know, You I used to love books and create a TV show. I grew up in a house where I didn’t have a TV. My parents were really religious. So I always was fascinated around telling your story, but creating it, visualizing it on TV. So I said to myself, okay, let me try and go and do something of— something I’m passionate about for 6 months. And 6 months turned into about 9 years. So that’s how I got into TV production.
Andrew Osayemi: What kind of an experience was that? And I’m sure there were some highs and lows, obviously breaking in and ultimately getting a series onto Netflix as you have, there must have been a fairly interesting journey with lots of obstacles.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, the great thing I had was naivety. That’s the absolutely great thing I had. And I think for anyone who’s gone into business, they could probably relate to what I’m saying. Being naive is probably your biggest weapon. So I went into TV thinking within 6 months I’m going to be able to create an idea, I’m going to be able to pitch an idea, I’m going to be able to sell the idea, and I’m going to become a millionaire. That’s the naivety I had. And it’s because I had— I knew nothing about TV. Luckily, my cousin was a TV producer, so she— we kind of came together as a combination where she said, okay, I’ll handle the creative side, you handle the business side. And then what I found was that it’s very difficult, one, to pitch ideas without any name recognition. Like, we were unknown. No one knew who we were. And then also to get money. So what I did, I leveraged my relationships with people I knew from the banking, banking world. And essentially, friends I knew in banking invested in me. I wouldn’t even say they invested in my idea. I think they invested in me because I’d been good to people. I’ve always been a networker. Always help people. So I think people either felt sorry and felt, wow, Angie must be going through some type of crisis, let’s just help him out with his dream, and maybe he’s going to come back to his senses and come back to trading. So yeah, so friends, friends, family in the community had really helped me out and invested. And because of that investment, I talk about over £100,000, I made a vow that despite whatever happens, I’m going to make it a success. So some of the lows were trying to figure out a business model. So we essentially made the first season with £100,000, which when you look at broadcast TV at the moment, typically a sitcom probably cost about one episode, probably cost around 3 to 4 times that. But we made the whole season with £100,000. And then I literally went around the world. I wasn’t able to sell it in the UK. I would literally jump on a plane and go to Ghana, to Tanzania, to Nigeria, to South Africa, trying to sell my show. And the reason I was able to sell it in that environment, because the show was about— it was almost about my family. It was about a comedy about my family almost. The concept was you have two parents who are immigrants and you have their kids. And the whole comedy was about the cultural clash between old-school parents and obviously modern British kids. And that’s where the comedy and the humor came. So we were able to sell it across Africa. And it was through that journey of just selling directly from TV station to TV station that allowed us to build a global audience of fans that then allowed us to go on to make season 2 and season 3.
Andrew Osayemi: It’s a fantastic achievement. Do you think there’s anything about your trading mentality that helped you kind of, I suppose, steel yourself for that process? I’m thinking maybe a thick skin or a short memory in terms of what happened yesterday and being able to get up the next day with a fresh start.
Aoifinn Devitt: Do you know what, you make a really good point. I think, I think yes, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, like you say, the best traders are able to bounce back. We were trained, or I was trained, to not let a loss, a big loss, affect you the next day, to stay calm, cool under pressure, be able to deal with very stressful situations. I mean, I remember, so I worked for RBS. So RBS was going through intense pressure in the financial crisis, and I was on the desks where we had to trade forward FX, which is basically finding funds to keep the bank going from day to day. It was like either overnight funds, tomorrow, next funds. So dealing with that intense pressure, I think you’re right, gave me that resilience. Because as any entrepreneur would know, anyone who wants to start their own business would know, is you’re going to go through tough times. You’re going to go through times— I mean, and not just business-wise, it could be with your personal relationships. Some of the stresses, like, gave on my personal relationships. Because fast forward, luckily for me, the girlfriend who I came back for became my fiancée and then became my wife. So at least I won in that regard. But it did put a massive strain on our relationships because I’m putting all my energy trying to make it work, but then also having a young family, trying to make that work at the same time as well. And as well as just— I think this is something that many entrepreneurs go through, is just sometimes it’s, it’s a very lonely existence because not many people can relate to what you’re going through. Many entrepreneurs I know suffer extreme depression. You have to go to these conferences and events and put on, you know, your best foot forward. You have to be smiling even if things are going terribly bad, and who gets the brunt of that when you’re at the the low, low points is normally your family. So yeah, being a free trader, I think, definitely helped me and made me more resilient.
Andrew Osayemi: And I think also the fact that entrepreneurs work so hard, and that is the other point, is that there really is no immediate reward and often very little time to take a break in there. So I totally hear that. I’m very glad to hear that your disastrous teenage love life had a happy ending. Can you tell us how maybe you suggest it could help someone get their dream job?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, and do you know what, that book was all derived from a time when I went to a school and they asked me, they said, Andrew, come and speak. It was two experiences. First time they asked me to come to school, they said, Andrew, come and speak about how to get into banking, how to do well at interviews, how to get your dream job. And I came in and I talked about investment banking. I talked about interviews. And if you could see the look on people’s faces, people were bored out of their mind. It was like silence. You know when you get that kind of like dry clap at the end and then you leave? Let’s be honest, talking about interviewing is not what young people want to listen to. So I thought, when they invited me, or another school invited me, I thought, how do I make this interesting and fun? And I came with the realization that Getting into any profession is like trying to get into a relationship. And, you know, as the title of the book suggests, My Disastrous Teenage Love Life, I didn’t have the best success as a young teenager trying to get into relationships. So I had to develop some resilience, some skills, some ways of how to improve myself so that I could have more success. And, and I think that’s the same with getting into professions. Whatever profession you want to get into. One, you have to do your research. You have to research yourself. You have to research what your potential love of your life is into. You have to work on your appearance. You have to work on how you present yourself, make sure you’re interesting, how you come across. And also you have to be able to be resilient. So these are some of the stories, like loads of fun stories I pulled into a book. And now I’m on a mission really just to go to schools and share stories around how the students can get their dream job through an entertaining way. And my goal is, even if I just help one person in that audience, one teenager in that audience, that’s giving back like someone helped me back in the day.
Andrew Osayemi: I absolutely love that analogy. And I’d even take it a little bit further to say, well, if you want the relationship to last and to be a good one, you have to keep working on it, right? It doesn’t just stop the minute you get into it.
Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely, and that’s a good one, and I’m gonna steal that one from you as well.
Andrew Osayemi: But as far as your work at Rare Recruitment, a topic of this podcast is diversity in the city in particular, but in finance in general. And there’s a lot of discussion around ethnic diversity, but equally, I think a problem the city is struggling to crack is socioeconomic diversity and mobility through the ladder. Can you tell us a little bit about what you perceive to be the challenges of socioeconomic mobility in prestigious roles or professions now? And what have you seen that helps?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, it’s a really good question. It’s something I’m really, really passionate about, like based on like what I do, helping people from underrepresented backgrounds, whether that’s social mobility backgrounds, whether it’s ethnicity backgrounds. My, what I do now is I work with the world’s biggest and brightest firms to help with that. What the key thing is, this is one is your family circle and your network, when you don’t have anyone who is from that environment, who knows what that environment is like, what you go on is typically the wrong misconceptions. So like I said in the beginning, I went on the misconceptions from my parents who said, just say sir and yes ma’am and be— sounds bad, but almost be in servitude, be like grateful for the fact that you’ve got this job rather than go and excel. I think many people from, especially from social ability and lower social backgrounds, they do not rise as fast in these professions or do as well because their attitude is of gratitude. When you’re grateful for something, you’re so concerned about not making a mistake, you’re almost struck with fear. To do something wrong, which hinders you. I think that’s what the main thing that when we do our coaching programs for social mobility students, especially around how to convert their internship or how to excel when they get into the early stage at the graduate level, is around having that confidence to not be struck down by fear, using our networks or finding some networks of people who are like you. You could be a young guy from Hull or like, you know, the north of England where it’s quite underrepresented in the city, look for someone in the city. Find someone maybe who’s come from that background. Try and find them to help you, even if it’s not to be a mentor, just to have a quick chat. That like will— goes so much further. And you wouldn’t believe that the confidence it brings really helps. So I think that gratitude, I think the curse of the gratitude. Is sometimes what affects sociability students.
Andrew Osayemi: I think we have to make a whole podcast on that curse of the gratitude because this is something I’ve really been focused on recently because it’s something I feel as a woman. I think not only does it make you struck with fear, I think it makes people paralyzed and mute in an interview setting. It stops them from asking for the terms that they need. And I think the interesting part of gratitude is on one side of our life, we’re all being told to practice it more. That gratitude is a sign of happiness. So we should every day write down 10 things we’re thankful for. And I think that maybe that’s true to a point, or that’s true to the point of knowing your worth as well. And I think it is an interesting tension.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you know what, I’ll tell you a funny story, right? And this is where it really hit me. And I couldn’t believe this happened. So it was bonus day, bonus day, my first ever bonus day at RBS. And different people on the trading floor went in and got their bonus. I remember one guy, he went in. I think he was one of the top traders. He went in and got his bonus and then slammed the door and then left for the day. And I was like, what happened? Like, what the hell? Did he, did he get sacked? Like, what, what’s going on? He was— he not like thankful that he got a bonus? And then someone said, no, he’s probably got one of the biggest bonuses on the floor, but he doesn’t want to let the bosses know that he’s happy with it, so he’s putting up ‘a show.’ And I was like, ‘Wow, I would never ever have the audacity to even challenge my superiors for my bonus.’ I thought what you get is what you should be grateful for. And the person said to me, ‘No, like, I guarantee next year he’s going to get a bigger bonus because they’re going to think we need to keep him happy.’ And again, me coming from a lower socioeconomic background, I’m not privy to that type of information. I mean, no, nor would I even suggest or advise anyone to do that. But like, I came from the attitude of, oh my God, like, just be thankful you’re getting a bonus, versus someone else who felt, no, I need to fight for whatever like bit or scrap or of money I can get. And again, like, there’s better ways of doing it rather than slamming the door, but I didn’t even think that was even possible. We can go into the deeper ramifications of, okay, what— I mean, me as a Black guy, do I feel like I had the confidence to do that? But it did allow me to learn a lesson that I shouldn’t be grateful for my bonus, I should fight for it. And that’s something I learned on that day.
Andrew Osayemi: That’s such an interesting observation because it may not seem important at the time, but I think every little conversation like that, every little increment, it all adds to the wealth gap. Yeah, this wealth gap happens after the effect of compounding. So I think it is important to instill an awareness, at least in young people as they enter the city, because these disparities will happen and they’re gonna start to widen. So was that a fascinating discussion there. I just wanna turn back a little bit at the end here to some of your own personal journey and maybe ask you about any key people who influenced you over the course of your career and in what way.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, no, sure. There’s definitely been a few. One, like, I can’t go without ever doing an interview without thanking my mother. Again, like I said, my teacher said I had potential. And sometimes people are told that people have potential and they do nothing about it. But my mom actually took those words to heart and said, look, even though opportunities for me haven’t been that great, but people believe my son have potential. So I’m going to do the best I can to help him. So she’s always been the— that driven me, pushed me, and she never let me away from that saying. Even when I wanted to give up, she’s like, no, you know, you have potential. You can do it. And that’s pushed me throughout my life. And also another person is like some of the mentors I had when I first joined in banking. I remember one of my bosses, I think it was Vic. One of my bosses was called Vic. I got offered the opportunity to go to New York. Like I said earlier. And me being from, again, that background of never been really outside Southeast London— I think at that point I’d never traveled or been on an airplane or anything like that— I turned it down. I remember he kept just pulling me to the side and said, Andrew, you need to be able to get out of your comfort zone. Your life is bigger than just Southeast London. You need to get away from your— because I was like, oh my God, I don’t know anyone in New York. What am I going to I’m do? Going to leave all my friends behind. I’m comfortable right now. But he said, look, you need to get uncomfortable. And through his guidance and his words, I eventually took up that role and going to New York, man, that changed my life from like living in like Manhattan to meeting all these creative people who would come back and influence me to go into production and follow my dreams. So yeah, so my mom and one of my bosses.
Andrew Osayemi: And it sounds like they’ve given you some great pieces of advice. Is there any creed or motto that you live by now?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I have one which I use like throughout my life, and it’s this. It’s a short saying. It’s, “Don’t focus on no, focus on earning your yes.” And the saying, why it resonates with me, because it’s not about— I mean, we’re going to be told many no many times. You’re going to have an idea, people are going to tell you no. You’re going to want to do something. You’re going to maybe— like, if you’re an investment or investing, you’re going to try and raise money. People are going to scoff at your idea. You’re going to have a dream. People are going to tell you that’s not possible. But don’t focus on the negativity. Focus on what do you have to do to earn the yes. And through my experiences in trading, trying to advance my career and get to New York, I was always constantly focused on earning the yes. And then when I switched to TV, even though BBC, ITV, all the big broadcasters in the UK told me no, I didn’t let that stop me. I kept focusing on what am I going to do to earn that yes. And ultimately, I was able to sell it to Netflix. So for anyone else listening out there today, don’t focus on no. Focus on how you earn your yes.
Andrew Osayemi: That’s so powerful. Now, looking back to your younger self, is there anything that you know now that you wish you had known perhaps as you came out of Warwick university and looked forward to a career in the city?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, absolutely. Buy property. You know, I wish I’d bought. My mom and dad were like, buy property, buy property. I was like, no, no, no, no, I want to go spend, I want to have fun. Yeah, so definitely investing, like buying property. And all jokes aside, just being myself, being myself, because every time I’ve been myself I’ve been more comfortable. I’ve been able to do things, build better relationships, deeper relationships, and just feel more uplifted in life. So yeah, so definitely investing in property, but yeah, being myself.
Andrew Osayemi: Well, Andrew, it’s been such a pleasure speaking with you here. I have loved your endorsement to follow— make a career decision based on love. I think probably more people do that than speak about it, but that was a very refreshing thing to hear. And then, as I said before, you are living the dream to most of us, at least those of us who, who are now entering media for the first time. So congratulations on that. And thank you for sharing your story with us.
Aoifinn Devitt: No, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Andrew Osayemi: I’m Aoifinn Hindevidd. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: Don’t focus on no, focus on earning your yes.
Andrew Osayemi: Let’s hear how our next guest faced his fair share of nos but earned his yes over and over again in both the financial trading and TV production worlds. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Andrew Osayemi, who is a specialist diversity recruiter at Rare Recruitment and the creator of the Netflix TV show Meet the Adebanyos. He started his career as a Citi trader and then took the plunge into starting a TV production company MTA Productions, although as he claims, he did not know anything about TV. He’s the author of the book, How My Disastrous Teenage Love Life Will Get You Your Dream Job. Welcome, Andrew. Thanks for joining me today.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you for having me. It’s an absolute pleasure.
Andrew Osayemi: I think we have to start by talking about your background, where you grew up and how you came to enter the world of trading in the city. Let’s start there.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, no, I have like very humble, humble beginnings, born and raised in a place in London, Southeast London called Peckham, to Nigerian immigrants. And I say immigrants because, you know, they came to the UK as students and didn’t leave. Set up a whole new life, a whole new world in the UK. It was really tough for them. So didn’t have much growing up, lived in council estates in Peckham while we were really young. But just the vibe, the community, just the opportunities that life gave us, you know, I’m always forever grateful. How I ended up in trading was just through like different things that happened in my life. So like taking you back, I was at like one of the worst probably primary schools in London, and I remember one day my mom gets a phone call and says, Andrew, headmaster says you need to come into the school. And you can imagine like this is like the ’80s or even ’90s, I think late ’80s, early ’90s. And when you get a phone call at home, you know something bad has happened. So I was disciplined before the meeting even happened the next day. So we come into the meeting, we sit down, and the teacher says to my mom that, look, Andrew scored one of the highest marks in a maths competition in the whole of London. And my mom was like, what, are you kidding me? And I was sitting there thinking, wow, I’ve been disciplined for nothing. But it was that day, what the teacher said to my mum was, “Andrew has potential. He just needs to figure out how to make it count.” And I think that was something, and I always give credit to my mum, she held on to that saying that someone saw something in her son, that he had potential. So she got me to apply to different social ability schemes, which eventually helped me to get a full-paid private school scholarship, and that then helped me to go to university, to an amazing university, Warwick University. And that’s how I ended up in trading. So a roundabout way of saying that through seizing on life’s opportunities, I was able to, to get to where I was in trading.
Andrew Osayemi: And when you moved into the city, what impressions did you have at that time of the city, of the level of diversity in it, maybe in the trading sector?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I, I mean, I’ll be completely honest, I thought it was— I was going into a majority white male world. Let’s call a spade a spade. And this was mainly for a couple of reasons. One, I was lucky enough to get an internship. And again, story of my internship, I had no clue what investment banking was, absolutely no clue. I remember one of my friends telling me that these investment banks at Warwick have the best like food at their Insight events. So we had no clue, but we were hungry, we’re students, so we turn up for these events just to eat the food. Like, lovely spread, as you can imagine, you know, all different types of food, food that as students we weren’t even privileged to have. And I just remember seeing someone on the stage, a white British guy who sounded just like me. So that’s what caught my attention because, you know, I’ve been to many events where people didn’t sound like me. So white guy who sounded like me and he talked about this thing called trading. And what attracted me to it, I mean, despite the fact that I knew and felt that there may not be anyone that looked like me, was he said that, you know, in trading, numbers don’t lie. And that for me was like, okay, whether there’s going to be discrimination or not, like, you’re going to be judged by your numbers. And that was something that was really appealing to me, that you’re going to— you have your chance to create your own success based on the numbers. That you bring in. And that’s how I ended up in the internship and then in trading, picking trading as opposed to anything else.
Andrew Osayemi: And did you encounter any particular obstacles? And what I’m thinking, I know you know Justin Anekesu, who is also a guest on this podcast. He spoke a little bit about code switching, basically just having to speak differently, maybe just consciously make an effort to fit in. Did you encounter any obstacles like that?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, at the beginning. At the beginning, and it was to my detriment. I remember it was in my internship, maybe the first week. I sat down, I was so excited, I’ve got this internship. I go to my mom and dad, and obviously they have no clue. They have absolutely no clue what investment banks are like. They don’t know anyone who’s worked at an investment bank. None of their friends work in investment. We have no clue. So they literally just said, look, go in there, don’t say a word, just say yes sir, yes ma’am, and almost be like a mouse. Like, just do all you can just to not bring attention to yourself. So for the first, like, 3 or 4 days of me being in internship, that’s what I did. I went in, you know, I was very, very polite, no expression of who I was. It’s yes sir, yes ma’am, got on with my work. And it was only until one of my line managers pulled me to the side and he said, look, Andrew, I’m gonna be honest with you, you’re not gonna last. On this desk if you don’t talk. And I said— and I was like, what do you mean? Like, I am talking, I’m being polite. He said, no, we need to know who you are, or if not, we’re not going to be able to go forward with you. And that sparked something in me where— and this happens many times through my— throughout my life. I said, what’s the worst that can happen? I said, you know what, I’m going to show the desk who I am. So I started to tell people about the fact that I’m a DJ, I like to play poker, I like to travel, go to clubs, go to raves and parties. And through that experience, people got to be more invested in me. And that was my first lesson of you need to be who you are. And also, I was lucky to find a division in trading where being a little bit rough around the edges was okay. Whereas I think if I’d gone into something a bit more corporate, like asset management or corporate finance, I may have found it more difficult. But being in trading, it was actually encouraged to be who you are. And I think by being who I was, I was able to flourish and get the graduate job.
Andrew Osayemi: That’s a really interesting point, actually. I think we often speak about authenticity and bringing ourselves to work because it benefits us, it liberates us, the individual. But I think the point you’re making, which is really interesting, is that it also very much improves inclusion and very much improves one’s success in an organization when they’re authentic, because it ultimately invites more relationships and more bonding.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s like— I remember going to meet my father-in-law and he said, to me, and I was very quiet. Same thing, very quiet. And he says to me, I don’t trust a man who doesn’t speak. I was like, oh, okay, let— I just started to speak. And it’s the same at work sometimes, on both sides, and the people who are majority or the people who are the minority. If people don’t speak to each other, people don’t share their different experiences and feel comfortable doing that, I think the inclusion suffers. So, by me being who I was and being, like, not afraid and being proud of who I was, that really helped.
Andrew Osayemi: So, on that point of authenticity, how do you find— so many people have different accents, say, whether it be from the north of England, south of London, and that may cause them to sound different from other people in the city. Do you think that that is a barrier still?
Aoifinn Devitt: I absolutely do think it’s a barrier. I mean, mostly, It’s an internal barrier for the person. Again, like I said earlier, I was almost struck with fear when I first got into my first internship. Like my mom and dad said, you know, don’t say anything, just say yes, sir, yes, ma’am. And I know I felt comfortable doing that because I was also scared of what my voice would sound like. Everyone sounded different. I had a South London accent. So I was struck with fear. And I think many people I speak to, whether they come from, you know, north of England, it could be come like in America when I was in New York, it could be people who come from the south of America, anywhere where accent is different from the norm. Yeah, you know, you could have, you know, an international accent. He— you’re struggling with it internally. It affects you when you maybe want to do public speaking at meetings, when you want to stand up, maybe when you want to go for leadership positions. Everything in your brain is telling you, people are judging me, um, people are laughing at me, uh, people don’t think I belong. So that internal battle is what a lot of people struggle with. And I think this is why it’s important for firms, especially when they’re going, they’re doing recruiting at different universities or trying to encourage to have different, um, types of speakers on panels, you know. I mean, it could be that it’s one thing if everyone looks the same, but then if everyone sounds the same, like, you’re really, really eliminating people or, or making it difficult for people to feel like they belong just because people come from different backgrounds. And I think I’ve spoken to people who have gone to accent coaches trying to either enhance a particular accent or to kind of like, you know, decrease the tonality of an accent. You know, even— I’ve I even looked at that. I looked at that once. I remember I went to one acting— to one coach, accent coach, and, you know, I did a session and he just said, look, Andrew, just focus on being authentically you in a professional way. I said, okay, what does that mean? He said, just focus, you know, you know, pronounce your T’s and your I’s and your ing’s, and, and that’s it, because you’re overthinking it and that’s holding you back. So yeah, so absolutely, I think it does hold people back. I think there needs to be more diversity of voices or accents, and people need to encourage, um, people that come from a different area or uh, to, background, to, to be themselves And I think most people know, you know, if you’re professional and you— it shouldn’t really matter what you sound like, um, as long as obviously you’re not using slang or anything like that. But it definitely is a hindrance, and it’s something that many people struggle with overcoming.
Andrew Osayemi: I’d love to then move from that discussion into discussing your move into TV production. Can you walk us through that move?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I’m gonna share something which, I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever really shared or gone into the depth on a podcast before, but I essentially moved into TV production because of love. And I know it’s gonna sound weird, but it got to a stage I was in New York doing really, really well for myself. So you think about this, a young boy who’d come from living in council estate flat with 2 bedrooms, and there’s about 8 adults and many kids living in one tiny flat 2, I’m now living in New York in like what would be classed as like a penthouse you apartment, like, know, overlooking the East River in Manhattan, and fully paid for by the bank I worked for. And I was one of the FX forward traders representing the bank in New York. And it got to a stage— and this is financial crisis time, so this is like 2008, 2009— and it got to a stage where I get the phone call from the head of FX in London, and he says to me, Andrew, we want to offer you 2-year contract to stay in New York. Everything’s going to be the same, fully paid, more money. This is fantastic. Everyone else in London is losing their job. Andrew, stay in New York. This is a great deal. I get off the phone and I call my girlfriend who’s in London at the time and says, look, honey, I think I’m going to stay here for another 2 years. And she said, if you stay for another 2 years, we’re were over. So I had that decision to make. Ah, do I go for love? Do I go for the money? Do I go for love? Do I go for money? And eventually I said, look, I’m going to come back to London and I’ll go for love. And that decision didn’t go quite well, didn’t go down well with my bosses. They weren’t happy. They warned me multiple times to say there’s no position in London, there’s no desk for you, there’s no seat, there’s no trading seat. But I still came back. And within 6 months, I was let go. So that decision cost me my job. But what it did do is allow me to dig deep and then go back and look at what was some of the dreams I had before I came into banking. And some of these dreams were you like, know, things like I’ve done— write a book. Know, You I used to love books and create a TV show. I grew up in a house where I didn’t have a TV. My parents were really religious. So I always was fascinated around telling your story, but creating it, visualizing it on TV. So I said to myself, okay, let me try and go and do something of— something I’m passionate about for 6 months. And 6 months turned into about 9 years. So that’s how I got into TV production.
Andrew Osayemi: What kind of an experience was that? And I’m sure there were some highs and lows, obviously breaking in and ultimately getting a series onto Netflix as you have, there must have been a fairly interesting journey with lots of obstacles.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, the great thing I had was naivety. That’s the absolutely great thing I had. And I think for anyone who’s gone into business, they could probably relate to what I’m saying. Being naive is probably your biggest weapon. So I went into TV thinking within 6 months I’m going to be able to create an idea, I’m going to be able to pitch an idea, I’m going to be able to sell the idea, and I’m going to become a millionaire. That’s the naivety I had. And it’s because I had— I knew nothing about TV. Luckily, my cousin was a TV producer, so she— we kind of came together as a combination where she said, okay, I’ll handle the creative side, you handle the business side. And then what I found was that it’s very difficult, one, to pitch ideas without any name recognition. Like, we were unknown. No one knew who we were. And then also to get money. So what I did, I leveraged my relationships with people I knew from the banking, banking world. And essentially, friends I knew in banking invested in me. I wouldn’t even say they invested in my idea. I think they invested in me because I’d been good to people. I’ve always been a networker. Always help people. So I think people either felt sorry and felt, wow, Angie must be going through some type of crisis, let’s just help him out with his dream, and maybe he’s going to come back to his senses and come back to trading. So yeah, so friends, friends, family in the community had really helped me out and invested. And because of that investment, I talk about over £100,000, I made a vow that despite whatever happens, I’m going to make it a success. So some of the lows were trying to figure out a business model. So we essentially made the first season with £100,000, which when you look at broadcast TV at the moment, typically a sitcom probably cost about one episode, probably cost around 3 to 4 times that. But we made the whole season with £100,000. And then I literally went around the world. I wasn’t able to sell it in the UK. I would literally jump on a plane and go to Ghana, to Tanzania, to Nigeria, to South Africa, trying to sell my show. And the reason I was able to sell it in that environment, because the show was about— it was almost about my family. It was about a comedy about my family almost. The concept was you have two parents who are immigrants and you have their kids. And the whole comedy was about the cultural clash between old-school parents and obviously modern British kids. And that’s where the comedy and the humor came. So we were able to sell it across Africa. And it was through that journey of just selling directly from TV station to TV station that allowed us to build a global audience of fans that then allowed us to go on to make season 2 and season 3.
Andrew Osayemi: It’s a fantastic achievement. Do you think there’s anything about your trading mentality that helped you kind of, I suppose, steel yourself for that process? I’m thinking maybe a thick skin or a short memory in terms of what happened yesterday and being able to get up the next day with a fresh start.
Aoifinn Devitt: Do you know what, you make a really good point. I think, I think yes, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, like you say, the best traders are able to bounce back. We were trained, or I was trained, to not let a loss, a big loss, affect you the next day, to stay calm, cool under pressure, be able to deal with very stressful situations. I mean, I remember, so I worked for RBS. So RBS was going through intense pressure in the financial crisis, and I was on the desks where we had to trade forward FX, which is basically finding funds to keep the bank going from day to day. It was like either overnight funds, tomorrow, next funds. So dealing with that intense pressure, I think you’re right, gave me that resilience. Because as any entrepreneur would know, anyone who wants to start their own business would know, is you’re going to go through tough times. You’re going to go through times— I mean, and not just business-wise, it could be with your personal relationships. Some of the stresses, like, gave on my personal relationships. Because fast forward, luckily for me, the girlfriend who I came back for became my fiancée and then became my wife. So at least I won in that regard. But it did put a massive strain on our relationships because I’m putting all my energy trying to make it work, but then also having a young family, trying to make that work at the same time as well. And as well as just— I think this is something that many entrepreneurs go through, is just sometimes it’s, it’s a very lonely existence because not many people can relate to what you’re going through. Many entrepreneurs I know suffer extreme depression. You have to go to these conferences and events and put on, you know, your best foot forward. You have to be smiling even if things are going terribly bad, and who gets the brunt of that when you’re at the the low, low points is normally your family. So yeah, being a free trader, I think, definitely helped me and made me more resilient.
Andrew Osayemi: And I think also the fact that entrepreneurs work so hard, and that is the other point, is that there really is no immediate reward and often very little time to take a break in there. So I totally hear that. I’m very glad to hear that your disastrous teenage love life had a happy ending. Can you tell us how maybe you suggest it could help someone get their dream job?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, and do you know what, that book was all derived from a time when I went to a school and they asked me, they said, Andrew, come and speak. It was two experiences. First time they asked me to come to school, they said, Andrew, come and speak about how to get into banking, how to do well at interviews, how to get your dream job. And I came in and I talked about investment banking. I talked about interviews. And if you could see the look on people’s faces, people were bored out of their mind. It was like silence. You know when you get that kind of like dry clap at the end and then you leave? Let’s be honest, talking about interviewing is not what young people want to listen to. So I thought, when they invited me, or another school invited me, I thought, how do I make this interesting and fun? And I came with the realization that Getting into any profession is like trying to get into a relationship. And, you know, as the title of the book suggests, My Disastrous Teenage Love Life, I didn’t have the best success as a young teenager trying to get into relationships. So I had to develop some resilience, some skills, some ways of how to improve myself so that I could have more success. And, and I think that’s the same with getting into professions. Whatever profession you want to get into. One, you have to do your research. You have to research yourself. You have to research what your potential love of your life is into. You have to work on your appearance. You have to work on how you present yourself, make sure you’re interesting, how you come across. And also you have to be able to be resilient. So these are some of the stories, like loads of fun stories I pulled into a book. And now I’m on a mission really just to go to schools and share stories around how the students can get their dream job through an entertaining way. And my goal is, even if I just help one person in that audience, one teenager in that audience, that’s giving back like someone helped me back in the day.
Andrew Osayemi: I absolutely love that analogy. And I’d even take it a little bit further to say, well, if you want the relationship to last and to be a good one, you have to keep working on it, right? It doesn’t just stop the minute you get into it.
Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely, and that’s a good one, and I’m gonna steal that one from you as well.
Andrew Osayemi: But as far as your work at Rare Recruitment, a topic of this podcast is diversity in the city in particular, but in finance in general. And there’s a lot of discussion around ethnic diversity, but equally, I think a problem the city is struggling to crack is socioeconomic diversity and mobility through the ladder. Can you tell us a little bit about what you perceive to be the challenges of socioeconomic mobility in prestigious roles or professions now? And what have you seen that helps?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, it’s a really good question. It’s something I’m really, really passionate about, like based on like what I do, helping people from underrepresented backgrounds, whether that’s social mobility backgrounds, whether it’s ethnicity backgrounds. My, what I do now is I work with the world’s biggest and brightest firms to help with that. What the key thing is, this is one is your family circle and your network, when you don’t have anyone who is from that environment, who knows what that environment is like, what you go on is typically the wrong misconceptions. So like I said in the beginning, I went on the misconceptions from my parents who said, just say sir and yes ma’am and be— sounds bad, but almost be in servitude, be like grateful for the fact that you’ve got this job rather than go and excel. I think many people from, especially from social ability and lower social backgrounds, they do not rise as fast in these professions or do as well because their attitude is of gratitude. When you’re grateful for something, you’re so concerned about not making a mistake, you’re almost struck with fear. To do something wrong, which hinders you. I think that’s what the main thing that when we do our coaching programs for social mobility students, especially around how to convert their internship or how to excel when they get into the early stage at the graduate level, is around having that confidence to not be struck down by fear, using our networks or finding some networks of people who are like you. You could be a young guy from Hull or like, you know, the north of England where it’s quite underrepresented in the city, look for someone in the city. Find someone maybe who’s come from that background. Try and find them to help you, even if it’s not to be a mentor, just to have a quick chat. That like will— goes so much further. And you wouldn’t believe that the confidence it brings really helps. So I think that gratitude, I think the curse of the gratitude. Is sometimes what affects sociability students.
Andrew Osayemi: I think we have to make a whole podcast on that curse of the gratitude because this is something I’ve really been focused on recently because it’s something I feel as a woman. I think not only does it make you struck with fear, I think it makes people paralyzed and mute in an interview setting. It stops them from asking for the terms that they need. And I think the interesting part of gratitude is on one side of our life, we’re all being told to practice it more. That gratitude is a sign of happiness. So we should every day write down 10 things we’re thankful for. And I think that maybe that’s true to a point, or that’s true to the point of knowing your worth as well. And I think it is an interesting tension.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you know what, I’ll tell you a funny story, right? And this is where it really hit me. And I couldn’t believe this happened. So it was bonus day, bonus day, my first ever bonus day at RBS. And different people on the trading floor went in and got their bonus. I remember one guy, he went in. I think he was one of the top traders. He went in and got his bonus and then slammed the door and then left for the day. And I was like, what happened? Like, what the hell? Did he, did he get sacked? Like, what, what’s going on? He was— he not like thankful that he got a bonus? And then someone said, no, he’s probably got one of the biggest bonuses on the floor, but he doesn’t want to let the bosses know that he’s happy with it, so he’s putting up ‘a show.’ And I was like, ‘Wow, I would never ever have the audacity to even challenge my superiors for my bonus.’ I thought what you get is what you should be grateful for. And the person said to me, ‘No, like, I guarantee next year he’s going to get a bigger bonus because they’re going to think we need to keep him happy.’ And again, me coming from a lower socioeconomic background, I’m not privy to that type of information. I mean, no, nor would I even suggest or advise anyone to do that. But like, I came from the attitude of, oh my God, like, just be thankful you’re getting a bonus, versus someone else who felt, no, I need to fight for whatever like bit or scrap or of money I can get. And again, like, there’s better ways of doing it rather than slamming the door, but I didn’t even think that was even possible. We can go into the deeper ramifications of, okay, what— I mean, me as a Black guy, do I feel like I had the confidence to do that? But it did allow me to learn a lesson that I shouldn’t be grateful for my bonus, I should fight for it. And that’s something I learned on that day.
Andrew Osayemi: That’s such an interesting observation because it may not seem important at the time, but I think every little conversation like that, every little increment, it all adds to the wealth gap. Yeah, this wealth gap happens after the effect of compounding. So I think it is important to instill an awareness, at least in young people as they enter the city, because these disparities will happen and they’re gonna start to widen. So was that a fascinating discussion there. I just wanna turn back a little bit at the end here to some of your own personal journey and maybe ask you about any key people who influenced you over the course of your career and in what way.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, no, sure. There’s definitely been a few. One, like, I can’t go without ever doing an interview without thanking my mother. Again, like I said, my teacher said I had potential. And sometimes people are told that people have potential and they do nothing about it. But my mom actually took those words to heart and said, look, even though opportunities for me haven’t been that great, but people believe my son have potential. So I’m going to do the best I can to help him. So she’s always been the— that driven me, pushed me, and she never let me away from that saying. Even when I wanted to give up, she’s like, no, you know, you have potential. You can do it. And that’s pushed me throughout my life. And also another person is like some of the mentors I had when I first joined in banking. I remember one of my bosses, I think it was Vic. One of my bosses was called Vic. I got offered the opportunity to go to New York. Like I said earlier. And me being from, again, that background of never been really outside Southeast London— I think at that point I’d never traveled or been on an airplane or anything like that— I turned it down. I remember he kept just pulling me to the side and said, Andrew, you need to be able to get out of your comfort zone. Your life is bigger than just Southeast London. You need to get away from your— because I was like, oh my God, I don’t know anyone in New York. What am I going to I’m do? Going to leave all my friends behind. I’m comfortable right now. But he said, look, you need to get uncomfortable. And through his guidance and his words, I eventually took up that role and going to New York, man, that changed my life from like living in like Manhattan to meeting all these creative people who would come back and influence me to go into production and follow my dreams. So yeah, so my mom and one of my bosses.
Andrew Osayemi: And it sounds like they’ve given you some great pieces of advice. Is there any creed or motto that you live by now?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I have one which I use like throughout my life, and it’s this. It’s a short saying. It’s, “Don’t focus on no, focus on earning your yes.” And the saying, why it resonates with me, because it’s not about— I mean, we’re going to be told many no many times. You’re going to have an idea, people are going to tell you no. You’re going to want to do something. You’re going to maybe— like, if you’re an investment or investing, you’re going to try and raise money. People are going to scoff at your idea. You’re going to have a dream. People are going to tell you that’s not possible. But don’t focus on the negativity. Focus on what do you have to do to earn the yes. And through my experiences in trading, trying to advance my career and get to New York, I was always constantly focused on earning the yes. And then when I switched to TV, even though BBC, ITV, all the big broadcasters in the UK told me no, I didn’t let that stop me. I kept focusing on what am I going to do to earn that yes. And ultimately, I was able to sell it to Netflix. So for anyone else listening out there today, don’t focus on no. Focus on how you earn your yes.
Andrew Osayemi: That’s so powerful. Now, looking back to your younger self, is there anything that you know now that you wish you had known perhaps as you came out of Warwick university and looked forward to a career in the city?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, absolutely. Buy property. You know, I wish I’d bought. My mom and dad were like, buy property, buy property. I was like, no, no, no, no, I want to go spend, I want to have fun. Yeah, so definitely investing, like buying property. And all jokes aside, just being myself, being myself, because every time I’ve been myself I’ve been more comfortable. I’ve been able to do things, build better relationships, deeper relationships, and just feel more uplifted in life. So yeah, so definitely investing in property, but yeah, being myself.
Andrew Osayemi: Well, Andrew, it’s been such a pleasure speaking with you here. I have loved your endorsement to follow— make a career decision based on love. I think probably more people do that than speak about it, but that was a very refreshing thing to hear. And then, as I said before, you are living the dream to most of us, at least those of us who, who are now entering media for the first time. So congratulations on that. And thank you for sharing your story with us.
Aoifinn Devitt: No, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Andrew Osayemi: I’m Aoifinn Hindevidd. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
