Aoifinn Devitt: What is the benefit of honest criticism, and why is it in such short supply? Let’s find out next. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast. A podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Guylaine Scheil, whom I got to know when we started on the same day as junior associates in a New York City law firm in the mid-’90s. Guylaine became a specialist in derivatives and recently launched her own firm, Scheil Law PLLC, to represent clients in the negotiation of financial agreements, including prime brokerage, futures and options, limited partnership, and credit agreements. In fact, anything that might represent the plumbing that is vital to the operation of the investment world. She also has a particular interest in documented social impact investing. Welcome, Guylaine. Thank you for joining me today.
Guylaine: Thank you so much, Yvonne, for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s start with your career journey. Where did it start and did it take any unusual turns along the way?
Guylaine: So my career journey has not necessarily been linear. I can say that there have been a few forks in the road. So when I graduated from law school, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, and I ended up doing a clerkship at the Federal Courts of Appeal in Canada. And part of the reason, the big reason why I did the clerkship was because of the judge, but part of the reason was also because I was interested in immigration law, and I thought that it would give me the opportunity to see some immigration cases up close which it did, and turned me off immigration law pretty much forever. And as a result, I decided that I wanted to do an LLM in health law. So, I did an LLM in health law, which I actually quite enjoyed, and my plan was to pursue a career in health law. But between the LLM and the time I was to write the Ontario Bar, I did I spent a summer at Debrevois where we met and I was staffed in the finance group and I ended up working on a few securitizations, one of which was with a multilateral institution, financial institution, and I was hooked from that point on, not only because the financial engineering was so interesting but also because of the thought that I could actually do something that was A, interesting, B, lucrative, and also would help others. So I decided that that was the path forward for me. And so I stayed on at Debevoise, then moved back to Canada, spent some time at two Canadian law firms. And then I had my second child, and I had an existential crisis. I started thinking that I needed to do more to give back to the world, and I decided that I was going to look into working for a not-for-profit. And I ended up becoming the director of operations at a small foundation that was working towards starting a university for women in Asia. And it was, and it still is, it’s a great organization. They have done amazing work. And I was the director of operations and I hated it. I hated the managerial aspect of it. I hated the clerical aspect of it. I hated the lack of urgency. I missed the cerebral aspect of being a lawyer. And also the world of not-for-profit just didn’t fit my— it didn’t fit my personality. So I went back to law. And at that point, securitization had lost some of its luster. And I was fortunate enough to be able to, at such a late stage in my career, to make a change and to go into derivatives. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past, I guess, 15 or so years. I spent 11 years as a partner at a small derivatives boutique, and then last year I opened my own law firm, where I represent mostly the buy side, but also other industry participants, as you said, in the negotiation of their trading agreements.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s so interesting because I agree with you that I don’t think corporate law is really that well communicated outside the law firms in which it’s practiced. I don’t think in law school we really get much of a taste for it. I certainly had never even heard of it or knew much about it until I started practicing. And a bit like you, I was also quite hooked for a while. Was it always your ambition to launch your own firm, or how did that come about?
Guylaine: No, it wasn’t my ambition at all. I never, I never thought about it before. You know, if you told me 2 years ago that I would be doing what I’m doing today, I would have been so excited to know what it’s like to, you know, basically have the confidence to venture out on your own. But the interesting thing is when I decided to do it, and it was, you know, it it was, was a very holistic decision, right? It was a decision that I made looking at my, my life, where I was, at what stage stage of my life I was at and what I wanted for the future. And once I made the decision to go out on my own, it just felt right. And yeah, it’s been great. I haven’t looked back.
Aoifinn Devitt: And what have some of your strategies been to building out your client network? I presume that’s a huge part of running your own firm is having to build that base.
Guylaine: Yes. So I made a concerted effort to try to obtain pension plan clients. I would respond to RFPs, I tried to go to their conferences, although I wasn’t very successful in doing that, but I did build up a small client base of pension plans, which unfortunately shrank when I left my firm, but despite that I’m actually very committed to working for pension plans and going back to the, I need to be doing something more socially conscious, that’s one of the things that I do that makes me feel good about the work that I do. Obviously I love all of my other clients too. But I do, the more pension plans I refer, the happier I am. And then in terms of other clients, I’ve gotten clients, a lot of clients through word of mouth and a lot of clients through the articles that I’ve written. And I really foster those relationships. For me, they are personal as well as professional. I like to know my clients and I try to certainly meet them in person if they’re in the city and even when they’re not in the city. So that’s my, that’s actually my strategy for building my network of clients is fostering relationships. I mean, we’ll see whether that works when we scale it up. I guess it becomes harder the more clients you have, but right now it’s something that I really enjoy.
Aoifinn Devitt: I agree with you. Working with pension funds is profoundly impactful, and I think it’s hard to ever get away from the fact that we are ultimately making a difference in the lives of ordinary people and their retirement funds. So I think that’s, that’s really something I never lose sight of. What other kind of social impact investments do you work on?
Guylaine: So I haven’t worked on as many as I would like. Right now I’m working on a loan, an equipment loan agreement to be made to a corporation in an African country. And I’m also looking at working on some energy transactions. But what I would love to do is to securitize microcredit. I’m, you know, my securitization days, despite being behind me, they still loom quite large. And securitizing microcredit loans, I think, would be so interesting. And so worthwhile, if it can be done.
Aoifinn Devitt: Any particular regions that you’ve seen microcredit in action that has been inspiring to you?
Guylaine: Well, Latin America and I guess Asia are where they— I guess Asia is the inception, but where they’ve been the most used. But I think that they actually do make a difference. I think they have been very successful. Wherever used in developing countries.
Aoifinn Devitt: Just switching back to your own story, we met in, as I said, the mid-’90s. What was your experience of diversity in the legal profession then and how has it changed over the course of your career?
Guylaine: So my recollection of our first few years, 20 years ago, was that there were a lot of Black people. There were, and of course that’s the, you know, that’s the diverse group that I was focused on. And, uh, but, but I think that if I were to go back and count, um, I, I don’t know that there were as many as I thought. I mean, to me it was like amazing, you know, coming from a law school where there were only two of us in, in my, um, in the French program. Um, it was so great to have so many, so many people. But despite that, despite the fact that even my perception there were a lot of people, um, when I, when I look at the, um The partnership roster, you know, none of them made it to partner. Did they want to? Who knows, right? I’m sure a lot of them are doing, are very happy having pursued other areas or, you know, made partner at other firms or started their own law firm. But the interesting thing is that there was definitely a pipeline, but it didn’t lead to, you know, the ultimate goal of partnership. So I think that’s unfortunate. And what are law firms doing now? I actually don’t have that much visibility into the big law firms. I mean, I definitely know that there are people of color that are partners in the major law firms. You know, I could say a lot, but I mean, what does that mean proportionately, right? There are definitely way more than there were 20 years ago, that’s for sure. I know there’s, there’s much stronger representation. But I think there is still a lot of work to do.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s so interesting from my perspective on the investment side now, having been on the legal side, the position, or at least the perspective here on the investment side, seems to be that law firms are at least a decade ahead of the financial services firms in terms of diversity programs, better representation. I don’t know whether that means they’re good enough yet, maybe not, but they certainly seem to be leading the way for many financial services firms. And I would imagine that some of the the same techniques work well in law firms as well as work in financial services. So recruiting from historic Black colleges, developing affinity groups, mentorship programs, nurturing. But the problems are the same in finance, the problems of progression. And I would imagine some of the solutions are the same too.
Guylaine: Right. So it’s interesting because, you know, there obviously is no universal Black experience, right? But there is a universal human experience. And when you go to work, you need psychological safety. You need to know that the people you work with, whether they’re senior to you or junior to you, have your back and respect you and value your work. And so that’s true for everyone. I mean, obviously there are some people who walk in with psychological safety, right? And no matter what anyone does, they’re fine. But for the rest of us mere mortals, it’s actually really important to be in an environment where you feel like you belong.
Aoifinn Devitt: Exactly. And I think, right, that’s where I think diversity is only one part of the equation. It’s the inclusion part that really makes diversity work, um, as opposed to it just being a, a box-ticking exercise. Were there any particular obstacles that you faced in your career, and how did you overcome them?
Guylaine: Right, so there are definitely obstacles that arise by virtue of being an outsider, right? Whether that’s your race or your gender or your sexual orientation, But my biggest obstacle was actually as a result of not having gone to school in the.
Aoifinn Devitt: US.
Guylaine: And not only not having gone to school in the US, but having gone to school in Canada in French, solely, completely in French, right? So even though the US has been importing Canadian lawyers for a while, they were definitely not coming from the law school that I attended. So that proved to be difficult for me because I I did not have a network. And I, you know, I’ve tried building a network, you know, I’ve joined all sorts of organizations. I joined this one organization where the annual fee was $1,000, which I paid, but then they never invited me to any of the events that they had. So, there was a lot of hit and miss in terms of trying to find a home where I could, you know, meet people and build a network. But, you know, it’s, it’s, my network is definitely not what I would like it to be. I still have to work very hard at meeting new people. And, you know, there are some people that everybody knows in the industry, and I’m just now, you know, making my way to meeting them. I mean, I do treasure my existing network, but it’s definitely something that, that I work, work on on a daily basis and try to expand it as much as I can.
Aoifinn Devitt: And it’s interesting because there’s been a bit of discussion in recent years about, you know, the value of an expensive degree, say from an Ivy League university or just a well-known top-name college, and the question whether it’s worth the money. But you could say that maybe it’s worth the network effect. Did you perceive that your colleagues who did go to US schools, perhaps better well-known, had better networks than you did?
Guylaine: No, I think that Lawyers who went to school in the US have, you know, they have a built-in network, right? And you can see that as people start getting more senior and their friends start getting more senior and all of a sudden their friends are in positions where they can refer work to them. And that’s just something, not something that I have, which, you know, I’m not complaining about. I’ve got a great network, but that would be lovely if I had that.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, it is a problem, and also because by definition it’s not going to create a great deal of diversity of thought if all of these individuals have come from similar places. So it’s— I’m glad you raised that. When you look at your own career, were there any professional setbacks or challenges that you faced, and what did you learn from them?
Guylaine: So setbacks, I did have a setback after I had my first child. I took 11 months I took an 11-month maternity leave, and when I returned to my firm, I was told that although I could still make partner, I couldn’t make partner in, in the group that I had been working with. So not in the securitization group. And I remember how painful that, that message was for me, because it wasn’t so much that I wasn’t going to make partner. They were making me feel bad for taking this time with my precious little child. And so anyways, I left the firm. I joined another firm. I then proceeded to have another child and I took over 2 years maternity leave with her. And when I think about it, trying to go back to work was difficult, but it wasn’t impossible. And looking back, I would not give up that time that I had with the kids, especially now that they’re off to college. You know, I wouldn’t give that up for anything. So it’s very important that you set your path, both professional and personal, and, you know, try to live by that.
Aoifinn Devitt: It does seem like a very strange message to say that, well, you’re partnership material, but just not in this area in which you have specialized. It seems like that was a loud and clear message, which was obviously not the right message to be sending to someone just back from maternity leave. Were there key people that influenced you, um, and maybe left an impression on you that you can share?
Guylaine: Yeah, so I, I clerked, um, at the, uh, as I mentioned earlier, at the Federal Court of Appeals in Canada, uh, and I clerked for the Chief Justice. And I was, um, very strategic in getting that clerkship. I did not apply to clerk with anyone else. I had zero interest in clerking at the Supreme Court. I literally just wanted to clerk with Justice Isaac, who was a Black man from Grenada, obviously Canadian, but originally from Grenada. And he was the first Black Chief Justice on the federal court. And he— my experience with him was great. He provided me with honest criticism, which had has been helpful to this day in my career. He was also a great sounding board, and he became a friend and a mentor. And he also was a pretty inspiring example. You know, practicing law in the ’60s in Canada, I’m sure, was not easy for him, but he never let that stop him, and he always pursued his dream and, you know, always remained a very happy, bon vivant kind of person.
Aoifinn Devitt: That is a nice term, honest criticism, which I think we are all starved for. Personally, I certainly have been starved in my career, and it’s— I don’t know why that is, but you were very lucky to have had that from him. And there was one mentor I had who gave it to me, and I’ve never forgotten it. So I think it really does help one to grow in their career and as a person.
Guylaine: Well, yeah. And actually, if I could just So that is one thing when you’re talking about, well, what should law firms be doing and how should they be doing things differently? And that’s an interesting thing. Lawyers are not managers, right? So they don’t get the whole training, human resources, etc. So my experience has been a lot of people when giving or providing a review of a junior’s work will fall short of actually pointing out areas in which they could actually really improve, in which they require improvement. And it’s all nice and good for somebody to leave the review session feeling good about themselves, but it’s not helpful if actually, yes, you’re actually great in these 3 areas, but you really need to improve this one and you’re not told. Because when, as you progress, right, if you’re not actually working on that fourth area that really needs help, you’re going to end up being deficient in that particular area. And that’s not great. And I don’t think this is necessarily something that is specific to, you know.
Aoifinn Devitt: To.
Guylaine: Black associates or anything like that. I think it’s specific to lawyers not knowing how to actually provide constructive criticism.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a very good point. And I think also it gets back— we keep getting back to this point of inclusion. In order to provide and receive honest criticism, I think there has to be a relationship of trust. And I don’t know that that relationship of trust can be built as well as it should be if there isn’t a very inclusive environment already in place. Any pieces of advice that some of these key people in your life gave you, or any motto or creed that you live by now?
Guylaine: So, it’s not so much of a piece of advice, but I have this one story which I repeat as much as I can just because I love it. I was working on a— we were working on a merger and we had a meeting during the weekend in a conference room. We spent all day. The clients left. And I was picking up documents from the conference room table and one of the documents was the other side’s list of issues and their pain points, what they could give, what they couldn’t give, etc. So a very sensitive document. I took the document and gave it to the partner. The partner glanced at it and he said, “Put it in an envelope and send it to their hotel room,” which I did. And that to me, was the epitome of integrity. I mean, the rules of professional conduct don’t require you to do that, right? You could— you have to notify the other party that you have their document, but you don’t need to not read it, you don’t need to destroy it. You can, you know, then proceed according to your moral compass. And the fact that he just didn’t even read it and thought that the right thing to do was to send it back to the to opposing counsel, just said everything. So that’s one of the lessons that I live by, integrity in your actions.
Aoifinn Devitt: Very impressive conduct. And also, sadly, I think that’s one of those examples of witnessing just great conduct in action, which, you know, in our current remote realities, I always wonder how much training is being lost because no one’s getting to witness some of these practices that are sometimes unspoken. Um, but so key. Um, what do you like most about your role today now that you’re running your own firm?
Guylaine: I, um, like everything about my role today. I wake up in the morning and I am so excited for the day. I, I even like the tech issues that I have to deal with, but, you know, the fact that they are of my own making. Um, I, I just love everything. And I guess maybe if I were pick one thing that I like the most, is the ability to work on social impact investment. That really, really makes me happy.
Aoifinn Devitt: It is so rewarding and rich in many ways. Now, looking back at your younger self, maybe to before we got to know each other in that conference room in New York City, is there any advice that you would like to give, any wisdom that you know now that you wish you had known then?
Guylaine: I would say be kind to yourself. Don’t doubt yourself. So much and don’t necessarily believe the bluster. I think especially when you’re young in this profession, I think there is a lot of— there is a lot that is not substantive, that is just, you know, form. And I I maybe got, I maybe tended to believe that more than I should. I think, you know, don’t doubt myself. That would be the most important advice I could give myself, my younger self.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much, Guylaine. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you today, and thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Guylaine: My pleasure, Ifen. Thank you for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Ifen Devidt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: What is the benefit of honest criticism, and why is it in such short supply? Let’s find out next. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast. A podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Guylaine Scheil, whom I got to know when we started on the same day as junior associates in a New York City law firm in the mid-’90s. Guylaine became a specialist in derivatives and recently launched her own firm, Scheil Law PLLC, to represent clients in the negotiation of financial agreements, including prime brokerage, futures and options, limited partnership, and credit agreements. In fact, anything that might represent the plumbing that is vital to the operation of the investment world. She also has a particular interest in documented social impact investing. Welcome, Guylaine. Thank you for joining me today.
Guylaine: Thank you so much, Yvonne, for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s start with your career journey. Where did it start and did it take any unusual turns along the way?
Guylaine: So my career journey has not necessarily been linear. I can say that there have been a few forks in the road. So when I graduated from law school, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, and I ended up doing a clerkship at the Federal Courts of Appeal in Canada. And part of the reason, the big reason why I did the clerkship was because of the judge, but part of the reason was also because I was interested in immigration law, and I thought that it would give me the opportunity to see some immigration cases up close which it did, and turned me off immigration law pretty much forever. And as a result, I decided that I wanted to do an LLM in health law. So, I did an LLM in health law, which I actually quite enjoyed, and my plan was to pursue a career in health law. But between the LLM and the time I was to write the Ontario Bar, I did I spent a summer at Debrevois where we met and I was staffed in the finance group and I ended up working on a few securitizations, one of which was with a multilateral institution, financial institution, and I was hooked from that point on, not only because the financial engineering was so interesting but also because of the thought that I could actually do something that was A, interesting, B, lucrative, and also would help others. So I decided that that was the path forward for me. And so I stayed on at Debevoise, then moved back to Canada, spent some time at two Canadian law firms. And then I had my second child, and I had an existential crisis. I started thinking that I needed to do more to give back to the world, and I decided that I was going to look into working for a not-for-profit. And I ended up becoming the director of operations at a small foundation that was working towards starting a university for women in Asia. And it was, and it still is, it’s a great organization. They have done amazing work. And I was the director of operations and I hated it. I hated the managerial aspect of it. I hated the clerical aspect of it. I hated the lack of urgency. I missed the cerebral aspect of being a lawyer. And also the world of not-for-profit just didn’t fit my— it didn’t fit my personality. So I went back to law. And at that point, securitization had lost some of its luster. And I was fortunate enough to be able to, at such a late stage in my career, to make a change and to go into derivatives. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past, I guess, 15 or so years. I spent 11 years as a partner at a small derivatives boutique, and then last year I opened my own law firm, where I represent mostly the buy side, but also other industry participants, as you said, in the negotiation of their trading agreements.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s so interesting because I agree with you that I don’t think corporate law is really that well communicated outside the law firms in which it’s practiced. I don’t think in law school we really get much of a taste for it. I certainly had never even heard of it or knew much about it until I started practicing. And a bit like you, I was also quite hooked for a while. Was it always your ambition to launch your own firm, or how did that come about?
Guylaine: No, it wasn’t my ambition at all. I never, I never thought about it before. You know, if you told me 2 years ago that I would be doing what I’m doing today, I would have been so excited to know what it’s like to, you know, basically have the confidence to venture out on your own. But the interesting thing is when I decided to do it, and it was, you know, it it was, was a very holistic decision, right? It was a decision that I made looking at my, my life, where I was, at what stage stage of my life I was at and what I wanted for the future. And once I made the decision to go out on my own, it just felt right. And yeah, it’s been great. I haven’t looked back.
Aoifinn Devitt: And what have some of your strategies been to building out your client network? I presume that’s a huge part of running your own firm is having to build that base.
Guylaine: Yes. So I made a concerted effort to try to obtain pension plan clients. I would respond to RFPs, I tried to go to their conferences, although I wasn’t very successful in doing that, but I did build up a small client base of pension plans, which unfortunately shrank when I left my firm, but despite that I’m actually very committed to working for pension plans and going back to the, I need to be doing something more socially conscious, that’s one of the things that I do that makes me feel good about the work that I do. Obviously I love all of my other clients too. But I do, the more pension plans I refer, the happier I am. And then in terms of other clients, I’ve gotten clients, a lot of clients through word of mouth and a lot of clients through the articles that I’ve written. And I really foster those relationships. For me, they are personal as well as professional. I like to know my clients and I try to certainly meet them in person if they’re in the city and even when they’re not in the city. So that’s my, that’s actually my strategy for building my network of clients is fostering relationships. I mean, we’ll see whether that works when we scale it up. I guess it becomes harder the more clients you have, but right now it’s something that I really enjoy.
Aoifinn Devitt: I agree with you. Working with pension funds is profoundly impactful, and I think it’s hard to ever get away from the fact that we are ultimately making a difference in the lives of ordinary people and their retirement funds. So I think that’s, that’s really something I never lose sight of. What other kind of social impact investments do you work on?
Guylaine: So I haven’t worked on as many as I would like. Right now I’m working on a loan, an equipment loan agreement to be made to a corporation in an African country. And I’m also looking at working on some energy transactions. But what I would love to do is to securitize microcredit. I’m, you know, my securitization days, despite being behind me, they still loom quite large. And securitizing microcredit loans, I think, would be so interesting. And so worthwhile, if it can be done.
Aoifinn Devitt: Any particular regions that you’ve seen microcredit in action that has been inspiring to you?
Guylaine: Well, Latin America and I guess Asia are where they— I guess Asia is the inception, but where they’ve been the most used. But I think that they actually do make a difference. I think they have been very successful. Wherever used in developing countries.
Aoifinn Devitt: Just switching back to your own story, we met in, as I said, the mid-’90s. What was your experience of diversity in the legal profession then and how has it changed over the course of your career?
Guylaine: So my recollection of our first few years, 20 years ago, was that there were a lot of Black people. There were, and of course that’s the, you know, that’s the diverse group that I was focused on. And, uh, but, but I think that if I were to go back and count, um, I, I don’t know that there were as many as I thought. I mean, to me it was like amazing, you know, coming from a law school where there were only two of us in, in my, um, in the French program. Um, it was so great to have so many, so many people. But despite that, despite the fact that even my perception there were a lot of people, um, when I, when I look at the, um The partnership roster, you know, none of them made it to partner. Did they want to? Who knows, right? I’m sure a lot of them are doing, are very happy having pursued other areas or, you know, made partner at other firms or started their own law firm. But the interesting thing is that there was definitely a pipeline, but it didn’t lead to, you know, the ultimate goal of partnership. So I think that’s unfortunate. And what are law firms doing now? I actually don’t have that much visibility into the big law firms. I mean, I definitely know that there are people of color that are partners in the major law firms. You know, I could say a lot, but I mean, what does that mean proportionately, right? There are definitely way more than there were 20 years ago, that’s for sure. I know there’s, there’s much stronger representation. But I think there is still a lot of work to do.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s so interesting from my perspective on the investment side now, having been on the legal side, the position, or at least the perspective here on the investment side, seems to be that law firms are at least a decade ahead of the financial services firms in terms of diversity programs, better representation. I don’t know whether that means they’re good enough yet, maybe not, but they certainly seem to be leading the way for many financial services firms. And I would imagine that some of the the same techniques work well in law firms as well as work in financial services. So recruiting from historic Black colleges, developing affinity groups, mentorship programs, nurturing. But the problems are the same in finance, the problems of progression. And I would imagine some of the solutions are the same too.
Guylaine: Right. So it’s interesting because, you know, there obviously is no universal Black experience, right? But there is a universal human experience. And when you go to work, you need psychological safety. You need to know that the people you work with, whether they’re senior to you or junior to you, have your back and respect you and value your work. And so that’s true for everyone. I mean, obviously there are some people who walk in with psychological safety, right? And no matter what anyone does, they’re fine. But for the rest of us mere mortals, it’s actually really important to be in an environment where you feel like you belong.
Aoifinn Devitt: Exactly. And I think, right, that’s where I think diversity is only one part of the equation. It’s the inclusion part that really makes diversity work, um, as opposed to it just being a, a box-ticking exercise. Were there any particular obstacles that you faced in your career, and how did you overcome them?
Guylaine: Right, so there are definitely obstacles that arise by virtue of being an outsider, right? Whether that’s your race or your gender or your sexual orientation, But my biggest obstacle was actually as a result of not having gone to school in the.
Aoifinn Devitt: US.
Guylaine: And not only not having gone to school in the US, but having gone to school in Canada in French, solely, completely in French, right? So even though the US has been importing Canadian lawyers for a while, they were definitely not coming from the law school that I attended. So that proved to be difficult for me because I I did not have a network. And I, you know, I’ve tried building a network, you know, I’ve joined all sorts of organizations. I joined this one organization where the annual fee was $1,000, which I paid, but then they never invited me to any of the events that they had. So, there was a lot of hit and miss in terms of trying to find a home where I could, you know, meet people and build a network. But, you know, it’s, it’s, my network is definitely not what I would like it to be. I still have to work very hard at meeting new people. And, you know, there are some people that everybody knows in the industry, and I’m just now, you know, making my way to meeting them. I mean, I do treasure my existing network, but it’s definitely something that, that I work, work on on a daily basis and try to expand it as much as I can.
Aoifinn Devitt: And it’s interesting because there’s been a bit of discussion in recent years about, you know, the value of an expensive degree, say from an Ivy League university or just a well-known top-name college, and the question whether it’s worth the money. But you could say that maybe it’s worth the network effect. Did you perceive that your colleagues who did go to US schools, perhaps better well-known, had better networks than you did?
Guylaine: No, I think that Lawyers who went to school in the US have, you know, they have a built-in network, right? And you can see that as people start getting more senior and their friends start getting more senior and all of a sudden their friends are in positions where they can refer work to them. And that’s just something, not something that I have, which, you know, I’m not complaining about. I’ve got a great network, but that would be lovely if I had that.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, it is a problem, and also because by definition it’s not going to create a great deal of diversity of thought if all of these individuals have come from similar places. So it’s— I’m glad you raised that. When you look at your own career, were there any professional setbacks or challenges that you faced, and what did you learn from them?
Guylaine: So setbacks, I did have a setback after I had my first child. I took 11 months I took an 11-month maternity leave, and when I returned to my firm, I was told that although I could still make partner, I couldn’t make partner in, in the group that I had been working with. So not in the securitization group. And I remember how painful that, that message was for me, because it wasn’t so much that I wasn’t going to make partner. They were making me feel bad for taking this time with my precious little child. And so anyways, I left the firm. I joined another firm. I then proceeded to have another child and I took over 2 years maternity leave with her. And when I think about it, trying to go back to work was difficult, but it wasn’t impossible. And looking back, I would not give up that time that I had with the kids, especially now that they’re off to college. You know, I wouldn’t give that up for anything. So it’s very important that you set your path, both professional and personal, and, you know, try to live by that.
Aoifinn Devitt: It does seem like a very strange message to say that, well, you’re partnership material, but just not in this area in which you have specialized. It seems like that was a loud and clear message, which was obviously not the right message to be sending to someone just back from maternity leave. Were there key people that influenced you, um, and maybe left an impression on you that you can share?
Guylaine: Yeah, so I, I clerked, um, at the, uh, as I mentioned earlier, at the Federal Court of Appeals in Canada, uh, and I clerked for the Chief Justice. And I was, um, very strategic in getting that clerkship. I did not apply to clerk with anyone else. I had zero interest in clerking at the Supreme Court. I literally just wanted to clerk with Justice Isaac, who was a Black man from Grenada, obviously Canadian, but originally from Grenada. And he was the first Black Chief Justice on the federal court. And he— my experience with him was great. He provided me with honest criticism, which had has been helpful to this day in my career. He was also a great sounding board, and he became a friend and a mentor. And he also was a pretty inspiring example. You know, practicing law in the ’60s in Canada, I’m sure, was not easy for him, but he never let that stop him, and he always pursued his dream and, you know, always remained a very happy, bon vivant kind of person.
Aoifinn Devitt: That is a nice term, honest criticism, which I think we are all starved for. Personally, I certainly have been starved in my career, and it’s— I don’t know why that is, but you were very lucky to have had that from him. And there was one mentor I had who gave it to me, and I’ve never forgotten it. So I think it really does help one to grow in their career and as a person.
Guylaine: Well, yeah. And actually, if I could just So that is one thing when you’re talking about, well, what should law firms be doing and how should they be doing things differently? And that’s an interesting thing. Lawyers are not managers, right? So they don’t get the whole training, human resources, etc. So my experience has been a lot of people when giving or providing a review of a junior’s work will fall short of actually pointing out areas in which they could actually really improve, in which they require improvement. And it’s all nice and good for somebody to leave the review session feeling good about themselves, but it’s not helpful if actually, yes, you’re actually great in these 3 areas, but you really need to improve this one and you’re not told. Because when, as you progress, right, if you’re not actually working on that fourth area that really needs help, you’re going to end up being deficient in that particular area. And that’s not great. And I don’t think this is necessarily something that is specific to, you know.
Aoifinn Devitt: To.
Guylaine: Black associates or anything like that. I think it’s specific to lawyers not knowing how to actually provide constructive criticism.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a very good point. And I think also it gets back— we keep getting back to this point of inclusion. In order to provide and receive honest criticism, I think there has to be a relationship of trust. And I don’t know that that relationship of trust can be built as well as it should be if there isn’t a very inclusive environment already in place. Any pieces of advice that some of these key people in your life gave you, or any motto or creed that you live by now?
Guylaine: So, it’s not so much of a piece of advice, but I have this one story which I repeat as much as I can just because I love it. I was working on a— we were working on a merger and we had a meeting during the weekend in a conference room. We spent all day. The clients left. And I was picking up documents from the conference room table and one of the documents was the other side’s list of issues and their pain points, what they could give, what they couldn’t give, etc. So a very sensitive document. I took the document and gave it to the partner. The partner glanced at it and he said, “Put it in an envelope and send it to their hotel room,” which I did. And that to me, was the epitome of integrity. I mean, the rules of professional conduct don’t require you to do that, right? You could— you have to notify the other party that you have their document, but you don’t need to not read it, you don’t need to destroy it. You can, you know, then proceed according to your moral compass. And the fact that he just didn’t even read it and thought that the right thing to do was to send it back to the to opposing counsel, just said everything. So that’s one of the lessons that I live by, integrity in your actions.
Aoifinn Devitt: Very impressive conduct. And also, sadly, I think that’s one of those examples of witnessing just great conduct in action, which, you know, in our current remote realities, I always wonder how much training is being lost because no one’s getting to witness some of these practices that are sometimes unspoken. Um, but so key. Um, what do you like most about your role today now that you’re running your own firm?
Guylaine: I, um, like everything about my role today. I wake up in the morning and I am so excited for the day. I, I even like the tech issues that I have to deal with, but, you know, the fact that they are of my own making. Um, I, I just love everything. And I guess maybe if I were pick one thing that I like the most, is the ability to work on social impact investment. That really, really makes me happy.
Aoifinn Devitt: It is so rewarding and rich in many ways. Now, looking back at your younger self, maybe to before we got to know each other in that conference room in New York City, is there any advice that you would like to give, any wisdom that you know now that you wish you had known then?
Guylaine: I would say be kind to yourself. Don’t doubt yourself. So much and don’t necessarily believe the bluster. I think especially when you’re young in this profession, I think there is a lot of— there is a lot that is not substantive, that is just, you know, form. And I I maybe got, I maybe tended to believe that more than I should. I think, you know, don’t doubt myself. That would be the most important advice I could give myself, my younger self.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much, Guylaine. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you today, and thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Guylaine: My pleasure, Ifen. Thank you for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Ifen Devidt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
