Aoifinn Devitt: How do we solve the problem that talent is universal but opportunity is not? Let’s hear what our next guest has to say and how he learned to not be afraid of making the call. I’m Aoifinn Devitt and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Arthur Elunwa, whom I got to know when he worked as a senior fixed income allocator at a large corporate pension plan based in Chicago. Prior to this, he spent time in fixed income risk management as well as a portfolio manager in a multi-asset team. He sits on the advisory committee of the CFA Society of Chicago and is chairperson of the Chicago Investment Group, as well as a partner and mentor of Youth Guidance. Welcome, Arthur. Thank you for joining me today.
Arthur: Thank you, Aoifinn. Thanks for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s talk about your journey into investment. Where did it start, going right back to your, your school and university days? And did it take any surprising twists or turns along the way?
Arthur: Yeah, so very good question. I was born in Nigeria. And after graduating high school, I moved to London for university. I graduated with a degree in business economics, and then I temped for a couple of smaller firms, then joined a then boutique asset management firm, Jupiter Asset Management. I had multiple roles at the firm, but my first role there was as a management accountant. And so as a requirement for that role, I trained to become an accountant. So as a qualified accountant, I knew Very early on, I didn’t really like accounting, but I had to have my CPA or ACCA for the UK to do that job. One of the benefits of working for a smaller firm is that you can wear multiple hats. 3 years or so into that role, I moved into another seat within the same organization, more of as a junior portfolio manager, and that was my first pseudo-introduction into investing. Having worked at Jupiter for just under 5 years, I joined another perhaps larger asset management firm, JPMorgan, in London, but I joined in the finance department more as a you controller, know, CFO, but had that bug to get back into investing. In addition to that, I had this bug that I wanted to expand the horizon outside of the UK I had done some, you know, some work. I traveled to Hong Kong, for example, and I’d done some stint there and I’d had colleagues in, in those regions. And it always fascinated me in my mind if I was going to expand my investment horizon to move to the States. But if you think about it, I was in an accounting role or a finance role. I was in an investment, but I also wanted to move locations and change roles.. And we all know that that’s sometimes challenging within any large organizations. I stuck through it. It was a tough hurdle, but I got a job in New York for what was then a 2-year stint to join the fixed income team. I moved to the States from London in the end of 2006. Now it was supposed to be 2 years, and then we all know what happened a couple of years after that. You know, the world sort of came to an end with the financial crisis. I then the role expanded significantly. I took on multiple roles there. Part of the team was terminated so I could gain more responsibilities, and I enjoyed that. I remember my boss at the time saying, “This is your sink or swim moment,” and I enjoyed that challenge just to learn, and we worked our socks off during the financial crisis. After being at JPMorgan for about a decade in New York, I was contacted by a large corporate plan in the Midwest to join their investment office. One of the benefits of maybe going from one side of the table, being the asset manager, to being the asset allocator was you see how the sausage is made on this side, on the asset allocator side, but more importantly, you see how different firms manage their money. I was benefited of growing at JPMorgan. You knew how JPMorgan made its own sausage. And so that’s how I joined this large corporate plan where I was responsible for about $18 billion of, of the plan’s $44 billion in assets under management. And so the path wasn’t linear. It’s, it’s taken its twists and turns, but that’s how I’ve got to where I am today.
Aoifinn Devitt: And can you talk about your experience as a Black man in finance and investment? You’ve been in one large firm for over a decade. Has that experience changed at all over the course of that time? Um, do you think it’s improving? As an industry offering diversity? Do you think that things are static to a degree?
Arthur: Well, let’s be honest, diversity and the finance industry has had its challenges. You know, they don’t go hand in hand and you can call it whatever you want. They haven’t had— it hasn’t been fluent. When I moved to the UK at the outset, there were a handful of Black folks in finance to start, let alone at the senior level. It was few and far between. As I moved to the States, to New York, the numbers are even more stark. And you’ve seen, particularly at the senior level, there are literally none at the time at the firm, very senior folks. Now, at the bottom ranks of the firm, you might see a handful, but retention of those folks was few and far between. And so I think while the times are improving today, there’s still a long way to go to get to where we have a good representation of the country and diversity within the finance industry. When I joined JPMorgan, I remember having to say, I’m the Black guy on the left side of the floor, and folks looked at me like I was weird. And I think it’s that discomfort that we’ve had that we have to try and overcome. It’s a descriptive thing. Being Black is not a wrong thing. It’s only if you use it in the wrong term.
Aoifinn Devitt: What is the issue in your mind? Is the crunch point at the pipeline stage or at the progression through a career stage? Because my perception as a woman is that there seems to be a somewhat ready supply of women at the pipeline stage, perhaps not 50/50, but there seems to be a problem with women advancing and making it to senior, to middle and senior management roles. Where do you perceive the, the true pinch point to be for ethnic minorities?
Arthur: Well, I think, let me address the women part first, because I think even in minorities, this is an important issue. Um, yesterday was the Equal Pay Day in the United States, which you think about, women still get paid. I think white women get paid about 75 cents on the dollar. To what white men get paid, and Black women in particular will get paid 62 cents on the dollar. But a broader issue is not a pipeline issue. I think as you, as your question addresses, it is a retention issue and giving them exposure. Too often women are put into roles that are considered non-technical—marketing, investor relations. And they feel rightly or wrongly, they perpetuate this notion that women cannot do the more technical portfolio or credit analysis type job. You and I know that that’s incorrect. Furthermore, when you look at the hierarchy at the firm, very few women or even Blacks are in senior leadership. So retention becomes an issue, and that’s driven by multiple factors. You know, senior folks might not realize that certain things that they say or actions that they do have implicit bias by just inviting all the boys to their golf outing and leaving out the Blacks or the minorities or leaving out women. Certainly, if compensation is now being judged by that one executive, there’s going to be a skew you because, know, relationships matter in all of these things. So I think That’s part of it there. And also when you hire young minorities and women, they want to see themselves in leadership. And if there’s no role model in leadership, then the likelihood that they would stay at the platform reduces. I mean, it’s a reason why, you know, this continues to perpetuate. So I think in my you career, know, at a large bank and even at a large corporate plan, There have been senior leadership, but they have to drive it. The leadership has to not just state it, but also drive it, ensure that we retain those folks. Definitely the pipeline matters, but retention and stating the goal and sticking to it also matters. Joe Biden picked a Black woman, Kamala Harris, as his running mate for vice president candidate for the United States. And I think that also shows where we are going to as a country. I’ll add one more example to that. Goldman Sachs also said recently on this diversity topic that they would not take a company public unless it had a woman on its board. So we can see that companies and the country are trying to move in the right direction.
Aoifinn Devitt: And have there been examples in your career where you feel you have been subject to bias on the part of your colleagues? Has anything been said explicitly or implicitly? And then my second part of the question is, what do you think we can do to start to eliminate some of this bias within organizations?
Arthur: Well, I think to say that you haven’t had, you know, you haven’t had something said to you or action that you could be considered biased would be incorrect or be a fallacy. I remember one, I was talking to an allocator at a large foundation. And I mentioned how we, at my old corporate plan, we hire minority managers onto the platform. And they had asked me that, oh, when I hire minority managers, for example, do I have to lower my standards? And I had to take a pause and step back and think, do they realize what they’ve just said? And this person is, is Caucasian here, and we all know And I had to respond back to this person, like, we all know that talent is universal. We all have some talent, but opportunity is not. So when we allocate, we are fiduciaries and we have to find the best manager for the platform. Having said that, the marginal dollar to a $1 trillion manager versus a $5 billion startup manager. It’s significant for the startup manager. JP Morgan, my alma mater, would not need that marginal dollar versus, you know, a startup manager would need that. Now, so in terms of lowering our standard, the answer to that question is no, never. Now, there’ll be times when we will let certain things, expectations to reduce because I want to take that meeting, I want to help the manager grow, I want to help to educate the manager, and that’s part of the role that you serve as an allocator. So I think that’s one example. I’ve had other examples where I think folks that are minorities like me will say to you that, you know, you almost have to be perfect in terms of your education, in terms of your skill set, in terms of what you bring to the table, in terms of how you talk, how you dress. But I think in this environment that we’re in, allowing one bring themselves to work. I mean, I think you look at it with Black women where you would, you know, folks will question their hairstyle as to almost question their intelligence. Those are implicit and explicit biases that we have within organizations that need to go away. What can be done? I think I mentioned this at the outset from your last question. Leadership have to— we had John Rogers, who’s a well-known investor in Chicago, be a big proponent for this. You know, he was on the board and he talked about and pushed for the hiring of diverse folks. Even when you’re recruiting, where do you go? To the schools. If you’re hiring from the same colleges or universities all the time, you’re in effect perpetuating the same thing over and over again. So expand the universe, look at HBCUs. It doesn’t mean you have to hire all of these candidates, but you are giving them a shot. You’re giving them an opportunity to be in this environment, to have these conversations. And I think that’s an important part to make things better.
Aoifinn Devitt: Right, exactly. And I think that conversation point you mentioned is key, having the conversations. There’s been a lot of anti-bias training. I’m not sure whether the evidence is in yet as to whether that actually makes a difference. I suppose it’s at least a start.
Arthur: Yeah, I agree. I mean, listen, if if we, we pivot to where we are today in the middle of a global pandemic, it has shown that there are great disparities in minority communities in healthcare, in education, and we need to do a better job. If you know this better than I do, that so often in financial organizations they embrace things that are— you don’t want to call it fads— that are recent, whether it’s climate change, whether it’s equal pay for women, or what have you. I think I mentioned earlier, you know, it takes 20 months for a Black woman to earn the same amount that a white man would earn in 12 months for the same job. The climate today is about social justice, primarily as it relates to Black people, hiring more opportunities, and what have you. But the question remains, are these firms and organizations just reading from talking points to pacify the mood of the country or people today? Or do we fundamentally want change deep down? Do we feel it? Do do we, we feel like we want to help improve people’s lives? Because Until we realize the impact of some of these biases of, you know, call it racism, that has on an individual’s career, not just on the individual’s career, but also their family and their broader community, then we can start to change. When you saw the protests going around the world about the death of George Floyd, it was driven by passion. But those things didn’t suddenly just happen. They’ve been happening for decades. I’ve only lived in the US for, you know, 15 years, so I won’t claim to know everything. But I think it’s been in the States, even in the UK, I think you saw the same protest. It’s been in the system. So some people will not even admit that we have a problem. They do not want to know or understand how a comment they make or a decision is made can be hurtful or in some cases be offensive. So the question really is always centered around what happens at the bottom and how do we get solutions. And I think leadership within a lot of these organizations can help. We hope, and I certainly hope, that as firms take this period to reevaluate, and I’ve seen a number of firms doing great things, and I think they’ll continue to do great things, and I think deep down they have the best intentions, but perhaps they just don’t know how to. And some of these conversations are uncomfortable, but one thing that I’m hoping that this period brings out is that some of that discomfort, we can have those conversations because we need our allies who are white. You know, my mentor, my biggest mentor is a white man, and advisors. You need all of these folks to have your back, to be able to have conversations on your behalf, to be able to open doors ajar for you. So I think that’s important. I know a lot of firms, the firms that I’ve worked at, doing things, but I think they can do better and they could do more. And I think they all admit that, if not, they wouldn’t have put out all the statements.
Aoifinn Devitt: In addition to that individual you mentioned that was a mentor, have there been other key people who have influenced you along your career so far, and in what way?
Arthur: Yeah, I think mentoring and partnership with folks is absolutely critical. And I think this is a fundamental part of growth within oneself. I was fortunate enough to learn very early on is that the worst that anyone would say to you is, “I don’t have time to talk to if you,” you pick up the phone and call them. That’s number one. Number two, you know, people like to talk. So I think if you reach out to them, they would talk. I’ve had mentors, both male and female, Black and white, help, advice, give me candid feedback on whether to seek an opportunity, take an opportunity, step back, or in many cases, just bounce ideas. But as I mentioned, I have a network of very close friends or peers, in many cases also seniors. I can give you a couple of names of folks. There’s Doug Fleming, who’s vice chairman at JPMorgan, Shaka Rashid, who is He’s an MD at Microsoft today. We started at JPMorgan together. We have Julian Bostic. He’s he’s a, a VISTA, another JPMorgan alum. We had Rod Norman, who is at the African Development Bank, another JPMorgan alum. Abigail Federer, who I wouldn’t be here without her. She took a chance on what I would call a rough-around-the-edges Black kid from London and allowed me to move to the States. And all of these folks I met through reaching out, and I developed relationships with them, and they all serve certain characteristics. There are certain conversations I would have with Abigail, may she rest in peace, that I will not have with Shaka or with Julian or with Jane, who was my first boss in London. So these folks are important to you to grow. You know, Ifeanyi, you and I would talk about, oh, I want to invest in this, can I do this, or what are your thoughts about X, Y, and Z? You are also an ally. You are also a partner to me as you grow. And I think it’s important to have all of those folks in regular contact as you grow as a professional and as a person.
Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely. And I think you make a good point that there isn’t just one. It can be a team. It’s like kind of they do bring a complementary set of skills and values to your career. Is there any creed or motto that you live by, maybe any advice that you got from any of these individuals or someone else in your life?
Arthur: I sort of have a creed per se. I mean, I always have this, you know, my, my mom is passed now. She didn’t work in finance, but she had a very strong business acumen. And so she had this tough exterior, very business-driven, had multiple hands in different things. And she would just say, just work hard. You know, just work hard, outwork the competition. When I moved to the States, I picked up running. And I’m not that fast, but, you know, I still try. It’s a good way to de-stress. And there’s a song that I used to listen to when I did the New York Marathon was Eminem’s “8 Mile.” And there’s a phrase in there. It was like, you know, “Failure is not an option.” I think I almost— take that to mind that I’m going to keep working. And it’s OK to try. Even if you fail, you can retry again and just keep trying. Pick yourself up and just keep going. And so I kind of live by that in everything that I do. Keep trying.
Aoifinn Devitt: And looking back at— you said you were a kid that came out of London into the world of finance. Is there any advice you would like to give that younger person if you could in terms of building in what you know now?
Arthur: Biggest advice that I can give to folks is network. Don’t be afraid to get a no. When I started off and I wanted to, I think I mentioned this at the outset, I wanted to change not just a location, but I also wanted to change roles. And I had to call more than, I can’t remember, 2, 3 dozen people. And 9 times out of 10, I got a no. But finally, one person said yes, and that’s all you need. So for the younger folks is, Networking is important. Keep reaching out to folks. Talk to people, your peers, your senior, but anyone. There are so many networking tools. It’s okay not to get a response. It’s okay for someone to say no, but just keep trying. My old boss, Jim, would tell you that when he was actually looking to hire me when I was based in London, he was unsure. And I said to him, listen, Jim, we’ve gone through this process. Would it make it easier for you, you know, if we saw in person? Now, Jim is in New York, I’m in London, and he was like, well, video chats were not a thing at the time as they are today. So I just hopped on a plane the next day, flew to New York on a one-day’s notice, and I saw him and he almost fell off his chair. So just that being forthright, just come forward, bring yourself to it, I think is an important part to growth. So that’s the one thing I would tell the younger folks today.
Aoifinn Devitt: No, I agree with you. I do think a large part of life is showing up, whether for people, for things, for events, just to, you know, make the effort to get there. I think it pays dividends. Well, thank you, Arthur. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you today, and thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Arthur: Thank you, Efren. It’s been a pleasure joining you on this call. Uh, more success to you. I think this is an important topic. I’m glad you are leading the charge.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Efren David. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and on their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: How do we solve the problem that talent is universal but opportunity is not? Let’s hear what our next guest has to say and how he learned to not be afraid of making the call. I’m Aoifinn Devitt and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Arthur Elunwa, whom I got to know when he worked as a senior fixed income allocator at a large corporate pension plan based in Chicago. Prior to this, he spent time in fixed income risk management as well as a portfolio manager in a multi-asset team. He sits on the advisory committee of the CFA Society of Chicago and is chairperson of the Chicago Investment Group, as well as a partner and mentor of Youth Guidance. Welcome, Arthur. Thank you for joining me today.
Arthur: Thank you, Aoifinn. Thanks for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s talk about your journey into investment. Where did it start, going right back to your, your school and university days? And did it take any surprising twists or turns along the way?
Arthur: Yeah, so very good question. I was born in Nigeria. And after graduating high school, I moved to London for university. I graduated with a degree in business economics, and then I temped for a couple of smaller firms, then joined a then boutique asset management firm, Jupiter Asset Management. I had multiple roles at the firm, but my first role there was as a management accountant. And so as a requirement for that role, I trained to become an accountant. So as a qualified accountant, I knew Very early on, I didn’t really like accounting, but I had to have my CPA or ACCA for the UK to do that job. One of the benefits of working for a smaller firm is that you can wear multiple hats. 3 years or so into that role, I moved into another seat within the same organization, more of as a junior portfolio manager, and that was my first pseudo-introduction into investing. Having worked at Jupiter for just under 5 years, I joined another perhaps larger asset management firm, JPMorgan, in London, but I joined in the finance department more as a you controller, know, CFO, but had that bug to get back into investing. In addition to that, I had this bug that I wanted to expand the horizon outside of the UK I had done some, you know, some work. I traveled to Hong Kong, for example, and I’d done some stint there and I’d had colleagues in, in those regions. And it always fascinated me in my mind if I was going to expand my investment horizon to move to the States. But if you think about it, I was in an accounting role or a finance role. I was in an investment, but I also wanted to move locations and change roles.. And we all know that that’s sometimes challenging within any large organizations. I stuck through it. It was a tough hurdle, but I got a job in New York for what was then a 2-year stint to join the fixed income team. I moved to the States from London in the end of 2006. Now it was supposed to be 2 years, and then we all know what happened a couple of years after that. You know, the world sort of came to an end with the financial crisis. I then the role expanded significantly. I took on multiple roles there. Part of the team was terminated so I could gain more responsibilities, and I enjoyed that. I remember my boss at the time saying, “This is your sink or swim moment,” and I enjoyed that challenge just to learn, and we worked our socks off during the financial crisis. After being at JPMorgan for about a decade in New York, I was contacted by a large corporate plan in the Midwest to join their investment office. One of the benefits of maybe going from one side of the table, being the asset manager, to being the asset allocator was you see how the sausage is made on this side, on the asset allocator side, but more importantly, you see how different firms manage their money. I was benefited of growing at JPMorgan. You knew how JPMorgan made its own sausage. And so that’s how I joined this large corporate plan where I was responsible for about $18 billion of, of the plan’s $44 billion in assets under management. And so the path wasn’t linear. It’s, it’s taken its twists and turns, but that’s how I’ve got to where I am today.
Aoifinn Devitt: And can you talk about your experience as a Black man in finance and investment? You’ve been in one large firm for over a decade. Has that experience changed at all over the course of that time? Um, do you think it’s improving? As an industry offering diversity? Do you think that things are static to a degree?
Arthur: Well, let’s be honest, diversity and the finance industry has had its challenges. You know, they don’t go hand in hand and you can call it whatever you want. They haven’t had— it hasn’t been fluent. When I moved to the UK at the outset, there were a handful of Black folks in finance to start, let alone at the senior level. It was few and far between. As I moved to the States, to New York, the numbers are even more stark. And you’ve seen, particularly at the senior level, there are literally none at the time at the firm, very senior folks. Now, at the bottom ranks of the firm, you might see a handful, but retention of those folks was few and far between. And so I think while the times are improving today, there’s still a long way to go to get to where we have a good representation of the country and diversity within the finance industry. When I joined JPMorgan, I remember having to say, I’m the Black guy on the left side of the floor, and folks looked at me like I was weird. And I think it’s that discomfort that we’ve had that we have to try and overcome. It’s a descriptive thing. Being Black is not a wrong thing. It’s only if you use it in the wrong term.
Aoifinn Devitt: What is the issue in your mind? Is the crunch point at the pipeline stage or at the progression through a career stage? Because my perception as a woman is that there seems to be a somewhat ready supply of women at the pipeline stage, perhaps not 50/50, but there seems to be a problem with women advancing and making it to senior, to middle and senior management roles. Where do you perceive the, the true pinch point to be for ethnic minorities?
Arthur: Well, I think, let me address the women part first, because I think even in minorities, this is an important issue. Um, yesterday was the Equal Pay Day in the United States, which you think about, women still get paid. I think white women get paid about 75 cents on the dollar. To what white men get paid, and Black women in particular will get paid 62 cents on the dollar. But a broader issue is not a pipeline issue. I think as you, as your question addresses, it is a retention issue and giving them exposure. Too often women are put into roles that are considered non-technical—marketing, investor relations. And they feel rightly or wrongly, they perpetuate this notion that women cannot do the more technical portfolio or credit analysis type job. You and I know that that’s incorrect. Furthermore, when you look at the hierarchy at the firm, very few women or even Blacks are in senior leadership. So retention becomes an issue, and that’s driven by multiple factors. You know, senior folks might not realize that certain things that they say or actions that they do have implicit bias by just inviting all the boys to their golf outing and leaving out the Blacks or the minorities or leaving out women. Certainly, if compensation is now being judged by that one executive, there’s going to be a skew you because, know, relationships matter in all of these things. So I think That’s part of it there. And also when you hire young minorities and women, they want to see themselves in leadership. And if there’s no role model in leadership, then the likelihood that they would stay at the platform reduces. I mean, it’s a reason why, you know, this continues to perpetuate. So I think in my you career, know, at a large bank and even at a large corporate plan, There have been senior leadership, but they have to drive it. The leadership has to not just state it, but also drive it, ensure that we retain those folks. Definitely the pipeline matters, but retention and stating the goal and sticking to it also matters. Joe Biden picked a Black woman, Kamala Harris, as his running mate for vice president candidate for the United States. And I think that also shows where we are going to as a country. I’ll add one more example to that. Goldman Sachs also said recently on this diversity topic that they would not take a company public unless it had a woman on its board. So we can see that companies and the country are trying to move in the right direction.
Aoifinn Devitt: And have there been examples in your career where you feel you have been subject to bias on the part of your colleagues? Has anything been said explicitly or implicitly? And then my second part of the question is, what do you think we can do to start to eliminate some of this bias within organizations?
Arthur: Well, I think to say that you haven’t had, you know, you haven’t had something said to you or action that you could be considered biased would be incorrect or be a fallacy. I remember one, I was talking to an allocator at a large foundation. And I mentioned how we, at my old corporate plan, we hire minority managers onto the platform. And they had asked me that, oh, when I hire minority managers, for example, do I have to lower my standards? And I had to take a pause and step back and think, do they realize what they’ve just said? And this person is, is Caucasian here, and we all know And I had to respond back to this person, like, we all know that talent is universal. We all have some talent, but opportunity is not. So when we allocate, we are fiduciaries and we have to find the best manager for the platform. Having said that, the marginal dollar to a $1 trillion manager versus a $5 billion startup manager. It’s significant for the startup manager. JP Morgan, my alma mater, would not need that marginal dollar versus, you know, a startup manager would need that. Now, so in terms of lowering our standard, the answer to that question is no, never. Now, there’ll be times when we will let certain things, expectations to reduce because I want to take that meeting, I want to help the manager grow, I want to help to educate the manager, and that’s part of the role that you serve as an allocator. So I think that’s one example. I’ve had other examples where I think folks that are minorities like me will say to you that, you know, you almost have to be perfect in terms of your education, in terms of your skill set, in terms of what you bring to the table, in terms of how you talk, how you dress. But I think in this environment that we’re in, allowing one bring themselves to work. I mean, I think you look at it with Black women where you would, you know, folks will question their hairstyle as to almost question their intelligence. Those are implicit and explicit biases that we have within organizations that need to go away. What can be done? I think I mentioned this at the outset from your last question. Leadership have to— we had John Rogers, who’s a well-known investor in Chicago, be a big proponent for this. You know, he was on the board and he talked about and pushed for the hiring of diverse folks. Even when you’re recruiting, where do you go? To the schools. If you’re hiring from the same colleges or universities all the time, you’re in effect perpetuating the same thing over and over again. So expand the universe, look at HBCUs. It doesn’t mean you have to hire all of these candidates, but you are giving them a shot. You’re giving them an opportunity to be in this environment, to have these conversations. And I think that’s an important part to make things better.
Aoifinn Devitt: Right, exactly. And I think that conversation point you mentioned is key, having the conversations. There’s been a lot of anti-bias training. I’m not sure whether the evidence is in yet as to whether that actually makes a difference. I suppose it’s at least a start.
Arthur: Yeah, I agree. I mean, listen, if if we, we pivot to where we are today in the middle of a global pandemic, it has shown that there are great disparities in minority communities in healthcare, in education, and we need to do a better job. If you know this better than I do, that so often in financial organizations they embrace things that are— you don’t want to call it fads— that are recent, whether it’s climate change, whether it’s equal pay for women, or what have you. I think I mentioned earlier, you know, it takes 20 months for a Black woman to earn the same amount that a white man would earn in 12 months for the same job. The climate today is about social justice, primarily as it relates to Black people, hiring more opportunities, and what have you. But the question remains, are these firms and organizations just reading from talking points to pacify the mood of the country or people today? Or do we fundamentally want change deep down? Do we feel it? Do do we, we feel like we want to help improve people’s lives? Because Until we realize the impact of some of these biases of, you know, call it racism, that has on an individual’s career, not just on the individual’s career, but also their family and their broader community, then we can start to change. When you saw the protests going around the world about the death of George Floyd, it was driven by passion. But those things didn’t suddenly just happen. They’ve been happening for decades. I’ve only lived in the US for, you know, 15 years, so I won’t claim to know everything. But I think it’s been in the States, even in the UK, I think you saw the same protest. It’s been in the system. So some people will not even admit that we have a problem. They do not want to know or understand how a comment they make or a decision is made can be hurtful or in some cases be offensive. So the question really is always centered around what happens at the bottom and how do we get solutions. And I think leadership within a lot of these organizations can help. We hope, and I certainly hope, that as firms take this period to reevaluate, and I’ve seen a number of firms doing great things, and I think they’ll continue to do great things, and I think deep down they have the best intentions, but perhaps they just don’t know how to. And some of these conversations are uncomfortable, but one thing that I’m hoping that this period brings out is that some of that discomfort, we can have those conversations because we need our allies who are white. You know, my mentor, my biggest mentor is a white man, and advisors. You need all of these folks to have your back, to be able to have conversations on your behalf, to be able to open doors ajar for you. So I think that’s important. I know a lot of firms, the firms that I’ve worked at, doing things, but I think they can do better and they could do more. And I think they all admit that, if not, they wouldn’t have put out all the statements.
Aoifinn Devitt: In addition to that individual you mentioned that was a mentor, have there been other key people who have influenced you along your career so far, and in what way?
Arthur: Yeah, I think mentoring and partnership with folks is absolutely critical. And I think this is a fundamental part of growth within oneself. I was fortunate enough to learn very early on is that the worst that anyone would say to you is, “I don’t have time to talk to if you,” you pick up the phone and call them. That’s number one. Number two, you know, people like to talk. So I think if you reach out to them, they would talk. I’ve had mentors, both male and female, Black and white, help, advice, give me candid feedback on whether to seek an opportunity, take an opportunity, step back, or in many cases, just bounce ideas. But as I mentioned, I have a network of very close friends or peers, in many cases also seniors. I can give you a couple of names of folks. There’s Doug Fleming, who’s vice chairman at JPMorgan, Shaka Rashid, who is He’s an MD at Microsoft today. We started at JPMorgan together. We have Julian Bostic. He’s he’s a, a VISTA, another JPMorgan alum. We had Rod Norman, who is at the African Development Bank, another JPMorgan alum. Abigail Federer, who I wouldn’t be here without her. She took a chance on what I would call a rough-around-the-edges Black kid from London and allowed me to move to the States. And all of these folks I met through reaching out, and I developed relationships with them, and they all serve certain characteristics. There are certain conversations I would have with Abigail, may she rest in peace, that I will not have with Shaka or with Julian or with Jane, who was my first boss in London. So these folks are important to you to grow. You know, Ifeanyi, you and I would talk about, oh, I want to invest in this, can I do this, or what are your thoughts about X, Y, and Z? You are also an ally. You are also a partner to me as you grow. And I think it’s important to have all of those folks in regular contact as you grow as a professional and as a person.
Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely. And I think you make a good point that there isn’t just one. It can be a team. It’s like kind of they do bring a complementary set of skills and values to your career. Is there any creed or motto that you live by, maybe any advice that you got from any of these individuals or someone else in your life?
Arthur: I sort of have a creed per se. I mean, I always have this, you know, my, my mom is passed now. She didn’t work in finance, but she had a very strong business acumen. And so she had this tough exterior, very business-driven, had multiple hands in different things. And she would just say, just work hard. You know, just work hard, outwork the competition. When I moved to the States, I picked up running. And I’m not that fast, but, you know, I still try. It’s a good way to de-stress. And there’s a song that I used to listen to when I did the New York Marathon was Eminem’s “8 Mile.” And there’s a phrase in there. It was like, you know, “Failure is not an option.” I think I almost— take that to mind that I’m going to keep working. And it’s OK to try. Even if you fail, you can retry again and just keep trying. Pick yourself up and just keep going. And so I kind of live by that in everything that I do. Keep trying.
Aoifinn Devitt: And looking back at— you said you were a kid that came out of London into the world of finance. Is there any advice you would like to give that younger person if you could in terms of building in what you know now?
Arthur: Biggest advice that I can give to folks is network. Don’t be afraid to get a no. When I started off and I wanted to, I think I mentioned this at the outset, I wanted to change not just a location, but I also wanted to change roles. And I had to call more than, I can’t remember, 2, 3 dozen people. And 9 times out of 10, I got a no. But finally, one person said yes, and that’s all you need. So for the younger folks is, Networking is important. Keep reaching out to folks. Talk to people, your peers, your senior, but anyone. There are so many networking tools. It’s okay not to get a response. It’s okay for someone to say no, but just keep trying. My old boss, Jim, would tell you that when he was actually looking to hire me when I was based in London, he was unsure. And I said to him, listen, Jim, we’ve gone through this process. Would it make it easier for you, you know, if we saw in person? Now, Jim is in New York, I’m in London, and he was like, well, video chats were not a thing at the time as they are today. So I just hopped on a plane the next day, flew to New York on a one-day’s notice, and I saw him and he almost fell off his chair. So just that being forthright, just come forward, bring yourself to it, I think is an important part to growth. So that’s the one thing I would tell the younger folks today.
Aoifinn Devitt: No, I agree with you. I do think a large part of life is showing up, whether for people, for things, for events, just to, you know, make the effort to get there. I think it pays dividends. Well, thank you, Arthur. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you today, and thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Arthur: Thank you, Efren. It’s been a pleasure joining you on this call. Uh, more success to you. I think this is an important topic. I’m glad you are leading the charge.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Efren David. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and on their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
