Aoifinn Devitt: If you look at the way that it seems social mobility works, is once you’ve established a beachhead from an underprivileged community, generally speaking, that beachhead becomes one in which other members of that community land and then can spread around into the areas they’re trying to break into.
Breakout Room 5: That was Sakir Nashebi, Chief Executive Officer of the International Business of Federated Hermes, whom we thank for supporting the production costs of this episode. Welcome to our breakout room, a spinoff of the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m Aoifinn Devitt. The UK unemployment rate has risen to 4.9% in the 3 months to October 2020. With 370,000 people made redundant. Official data recently published shows that the annual fall in employment is the highest in a decade, with the number of people in paid work 280,000 lower than a year earlier, taking the employment rate to only 75%. The government has said after the figures released that protecting lives and livelihoods is our number one priority, and they particularly underscored the Kickstart scheme for unemployed young people as they meant to ensure that nobody is left without hope or opportunity. Employment is also an important source of dignity, and as we all know, the focus on the UN Sustainable Development Goals, SDG 8, looks to decent work and to promote sustained, inclusive, and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment, and decent work for all. With this focus on youth unemployment, this, we have here in this breakout room, a rare opportunity to see the impact of a program which targeted unemployed youth 7 years ago. Many of the programmes and initiatives that we see are focused on now, but it’s very rare to be able to look back and look at the impact of a programme that had already happened, to look at the impact it’s had on participants, but also on those who sponsored and delivered it. Youth employment has always been a large focus for the UK government, particularly in 2011 after the financial crash. At that time, the government launched a Futures Job Fund in a bid to provide opportunities for a growing number of unemployed youth. That was also the year that summer riots took place across the UK. In Croydon, we saw the image of a burning Reeves furniture store featuring on news stories across the world. It was at that time a groundbreaking programme was put together by our panellists here in order to focus on the problem of youth unemployment. I’m joined here by Stuart Heatley, Managing Director of Capita Pensions, Suzanne Taylor, Senior Consultant at LCP, Salomon Beyoud, who was a participant in that youth unemployment programme, and Derek Brown, Chief Executive of Entrepreneurs in Action, whose brainchild the programme was and put together the programme with Stuart. I’d like to first start with Stuart to speak about why at that time, 7 years ago, he was interested in the area of youth unemployment and what it was about it that triggered an interest in him. Stuart, welcome. Can you tell us about why you decided to invest in a programme targeting unemployed young people from Croydon?
Speaker C: Hi, thanks very much. I just start by saying this is one of the most interesting and rewarding things that I think I’ve done in my career, and certainly as a senior leader within business. It was a time of significant growth, and we needed to look at a different way of recruiting and bringing people into our business. And I met with Derek, and I was really interested in what he talked about around CVs and getting past CVs. I’ve always been a great believer in bringing people on, and when you talk to people, that actually, really, if you’re relying only on their CV, then you’re not really getting to understand about the person that you’re bringing on. And Derek talked to me about the program that he had, the potential that he was seeing on a day-to-day basis amongst some of the the people that he was working with, and it really captured my imagination. It really made me think, you know, we need to approach this in a different way. And with the support from Suzanne, who had taken on the, the new office as part of her overall leadership, we embarked on the program. And really, the program was about tapping into a pool of potential that I think conventionally employers wouldn’t look at. And like I say, one of the most interesting and rewarding things that I’ve done.
Breakout Room 5: And just in terms of your own personal experience, I think that you have always been focused on recruiting based on potential and talent and not necessarily on a narrow definition of academic success. Can you just talk a little bit about that experience?
Speaker C: Yeah, and it starts with myself. I didn’t I left school, and I didn’t go to university. I started splitting print. That was my job with a ruler. And I was given an opportunity, and I joined what at the time was a very entrepreneurial business. And I got great opportunities to work my way through the business and learn a lot of different things that ultimately meant that at the time, I was the managing director of the Aon pensions and benefits business. I think as I’ve approached recruitment with both senior leaders and also bringing people into the businesses that I’ve worked for, I’ve tried to look for that potential and look beyond necessarily people who have been to university and specialized in, in a particular subject. It doesn’t mean that we don’t recruit graduates, of course we do, and that is definitely something that will continue for good reason, but But what we’ve also got to do is we’ve got to be mindful of either through circumstance or will. Mine was more through will. I decided I didn’t want to go to university. I wanted to do a whole lot of other things. But through circumstance or through will, people won’t go on to secondary education. But it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be channeling that talent and channeling the potential into our business, because that’s going to be great for business.
Breakout Room 5: And just moving to you now, Derek. Thanks, Stewart. What was your pitch? You heard, you were obviously witnessing the situation in Croydon. You’ve been focused on youth unemployment for some time. What’s your view on how corporations currently recruit versus how they should recruit? And what was your pitch to Stewart?
Speaker D: Thank you, Aoifinn, and Stewart’s sort of given you, set the scene really. Yeah, so I was introduced to Stewart, and we had a conversation around recruitment. He was talking very much about the Croydon office, and I pitched him and said, look, you’ve got the office here, Stuart, would you not be interested in recruiting some local talent? The old adage of a big global insurance company looking to and engage with local talent. And Stuart said, you know, he liked the idea. And then I pushed and said, wouldn’t it be really interesting if we recruited in that old traditional way by talent and not by numbers? And what I mean by not by numbers, I think we’ve become obsessed then and today in recruiting young people into jobs by numbers. Numbers of the A*s that you get at GCSE, number of A-levels, what grades you get, have you got a first-class degree, did you go to one of the big Russell Group universities. And I, you know, I said to Stuart that there are lots of talented people who would get, who’d really value the opportunity being recruited on their talent and giving the business leaders the opportunity to have a hunch and recruit. And Stuart’s already talked about somebody giving him an opportunity, and I think the present recruitment, the existing and today’s recruitment process, processes focus predominantly on academic resource, academic results. And I’ve often asked leaders Many of them wouldn’t get a job today if they were going to be screened on the academic qualifications that their HR departments are looking at for entry-level jobs. So huge number of people who have got into business and proved themselves, and Stuart and many others are like that who will be listening to this podcast. So I pitched Stuart that we would design the UK’s first CV-less recruitment process, and he liked the idea, he liked the idea, but he did give me a warning that if it didn’t work, he did give me that look, and unfortunately we can’t see Stuart, but he is over 6 foot and a big rugby player, and I knew that I had to get this job right. So he set the scene in a really polite way that, you know, I’m going to back you, but go ahead and do it. And The opportunity to work in Croydon was a fabulous opportunity. As you mentioned, huge amounts of negativity about the Croydon brand. We, you know, the Croydon was at the height of every news report, the burning Reeves building, but there was a lot of talent in Croydon. And I think that it’s just about giving young people a chance, an opportunity, and getting their confidence up so they can apply for a big global brand such as Aon. So from our perspective, we put together the program, we partnered with Jobcentre Plus and the Croydon Council, and I’ll talk about that a bit later. But essentially the pitch was to Stuart, give these young people a chance, move away from CVs, move away from recruiting and numbers, and let’s create a level playing field where people, young people, could be recruited based on their talent and accept the opportunity.
Breakout Room 5: Thank you, Derek. And let’s move to Suzanne to talk about translating this ideal into reality, because I understand that you managed the program and oversaw the entire recruitment process from day one to the final presentation. Can you walk us through, first of all, your initial thoughts as you went into that? What the selection process was like and how you managed it.
Speaker E: Hi, yes, so I can remember the first conversation that I had with Stuart, actually. We were sitting down having a chat and he raised with me the idea, and I think very early on I became quite excited because I live locally in South West London and really understand some of the challenges that was faced by the young people. But at the same time, I was living in this corporate world going through the process as Derek described, where you have this CV approach to interviewing. So, instantly, the whole approach of the programme really became quite exciting because it felt that you could do something locally for local people. And as Stuart touched on, we were setting up a new office, so it was a great opportunity. So, the first point really around what we started to do was I started to talk to my wider management team And really early on, I realised that I wasn’t the only one that was quite excited about this. It was being received really positive with the existing staff that were working in the office with me. So, I think from very, very early on, it was a really new opportunity, quite exciting, and to make a difference in the local community, and that really stood out. In terms of what we did with working on the programme, I think what was really great for us when I look back on it was having that opportunity to see individual candidates for more than an hour. So to get to actually build a programme with EIA on how you could come together with a group of young people and really understand what they had to give. And I think it would be fair to say that on the first day where we worked in the college, we were really overwhelmed with the enthusiasm and the motivation and the commitment from young people. It was pretty amazing.
Breakout Room 5: That’s great. And in terms of the number of candidates, I understand that you started with 10, but you did ultimately increase to 15. Can you just talk us through that?
Speaker E: Yeah, I can actually remember when we were sitting at the end of the boardroom session with the leadership team, we were trying to decide who the final 10 would be. And it would be fair to say that that wasn’t an easy conversation. There was lots of conflict in discussions. And in fairness, I think Stuart instantly agreed that we would increase that number to 15. But, but I think even at that point, we were quite disappointed that there was so much talent in that room. We would have liked to have increased that number further, because what you really saw from the young people was all of the strengths that they would bring into an organisation that you wouldn’t necessarily see through an interview process, even if you went through one or two different stages. Because what you were actually seeing was these young people working in that environment as if they were placed in that business with you. So it was absolutely It was quite overwhelming, actually. I think it would be fair to say I found it very emotional to see what young people had to give.
Breakout Room 5: Well, thank you. And moving now to Solomon, I’d love to hear your personal story in terms of, are you a son of Croydon, for example, and how you came to hear about this program and what you felt during this process?
Speaker F: Thank you. So for me, actually, I have quite a different experience in terms of I was in a bad place, really. I had, um, just finished uni, couldn’t get a job. I studied accounting and finance and was just struggling to get an interview. Like, I’d applied for so many jobs, but one thing I didn’t do, which my mom insisted I did, was sign up for the job center because I had some savings prior, because I had worked at the London Olympics the year before. So I had some savings, and I really didn’t want to going to the job center. In my opinion, it’s just not the place you go if you want to get a job. That was my perspective. And, um, so I avoided job center. But what was interesting was just I woke up one day and I decided to take my mom’s advice and actually just go into the job center. And I remember going in the first day and thinking, oh, what am I doing here? Don’t like this place at all. And I remember signing up with an advisor who looked at my CV and was like, what are you doing here? Like, you’ve got a degree, you seem to, you know, like this place isn’t for you, essentially. And it was even more depressing. So I remember that first week not going great, and then came back the next week and my advisor was ill. It was someone else. And she looked at my CV again and she was like, do you know what, I’m going to give you the advice that I gave my kids. Stop looking for a job, look for an employer that has room for you to grow and for you to eventually get to what you want to do. And then she um, mentioned, the, the program with EIA backed by Aon Hewitt. And she— I’d never heard of Aon Hewitt at the time. And she said, trust me, just apply for it. It’s a completely different process. All you need is your GCSEs and they’re going to take you through the process and just, just go along to it. I was like, okay, sure, why not? Got nothing to lose. And that was pretty much how I ended up on the program. I almost didn’t go to that, um, meeting that day, which was— now thinking about it, it’s, it’s, it’s almost crazy. And I would say it was a great decision, Derek, to partner with the job center because I almost imagine it could have been anything else. It could have been with an agency and so on and so forth. I think doing it with the job center was actually the perfect way to go about this in order to meet what the actual— what you were trying to do with this program. So that’s pretty much how I ended up on the program. And I must say, one thing that the program did for me was motivate me. I remember, um, I say, I think it was like just a couple days into, um, the process. I remember thinking, wow, I’m actually excited to get up now. I’m excited to go and do this. So every day I went, I was more— I was motivated. So that was the one thing it definitely gave me, which I didn’t realize, that I was demotivated. So, it motivated me.
Breakout Room 5: So, our other panelists have spoken about feeling overwhelmed in that room by the sheer talent, the energy, the enthusiasm. How did you feel when you were dealing with this potential employer? Did you feel overwhelmed? Did you feel that your confidence was growing in that setting?
Speaker F: Yes, I’d say, actually, I remember the first stage, there was actually quite a lot of people. I don’t remember what the number was, but I’m tempted to say it was hundreds. And I remember walking in thinking, seriously, 10 jobs? There was quite a lot of people in the room, and I remember feeling overwhelmed thinking, wow, that really, really have to be you a, know, special 10 to get the job because it’s quite a lot of people in there. And I remember feeling overwhelmed at that stage even before we got to the final 25. I think when we did the group activities in the breakout rooms that I remember feeling overwhelmed and almost couldn’t speak because there’s just so many people and so much going on.
Breakout Room 5: No, it’s definitely, it sounds like quite a unique experience. And what I think is also very interesting is that you had a university degree, but even still, you weren’t aware of programs like this. And this is something that has come up in other breakout rooms, that perhaps the industry doesn’t do enough of a good job in getting itself out there to potential talent. And it’s only through programs like this, maybe, that we can plug gap. So how did you feel when you were offered the position, when you were one of the lucky 15, I suppose, if there was 15 positions?
Speaker F: Yes, I’m actually— I’ll go further and say I was one of the even luckier 5 because I didn’t get one of the jobs that was originally advertised. I got an even better job, which has pretty much set me up for what I’ve achieved right now. So it was an analyst, analyst job, and it was something that even till today I get friends and family questioning me, like, how did you get that job? And when I told them the story, they’re like, oh wow, because I didn’t study anything to get that job. It was pretty much, um, um, I’d say it was Ian, um, Ian Bloxham, who’s not here today, but he wanted me in his team He, he was involved in the process and he saw my presentation and he wanted me in his team. So I ended up getting a different job to what was advertised, which was amazing. And that’s been the perfect job because I guess that talent that he saw in me, I didn’t see myself. And since then it’s just grown. Like, I can’t explain to you or express how much it’s changed my life completely. It was something I never considered doing. And just from this program and this process, I’ve been able to develop a skill and develop a talent that had always been there, I guess, but I wasn’t aware of.
Breakout Room 5: Great. I’d like to just go back to some of the other panel members in terms of their— maybe the impressions it made on them personally, whether it be the initial day or the program as it evolved. Back to you, Stewart. Can you maybe speak about some of the presentations you saw that day? And how the program evolved in your eyes.
Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So I wasn’t involved in the initial selection day, and as Suzanne said, that she, she really was the sponsor of this and really, I think, made this successful for us and also for the people that were involved alongside Derek. But, you know, we had a session where we, at the end of this, where we got the presentations and where this was where we were going to select our 10 people. And I’m not sure I was overwhelmed, I was just, I was absolutely, I found it incredible that we had managed to get such a wonderful group of people that wanted to be part of our organization, that wanted the opportunity, and had not just done the day with Derek and then come along to have a conversation with us, but actually they’d done a lot of preparation. And they’d been separated into groups, and they’d been given particular topics that were close to our heart in terms of how we served our clients or how we could see the market moving. And they’d come in, and they presented as groups, and they’d done the work together. They put a lot of effort into it. And I was just amazed. And it felt like such an affirmation of the direction that we had taken. But the affirmation was nothing to do with us, the affirmation was to do with the talent that had come into the room, the enthusiasm that was there. I think Suzanne mentioned enthusiasm, the enthusiasm, the desire to learn, the desire to be part of our organization. Give me that any day over a group of people who are kind of just looking at a whole number of jobs to see and throwing their CV out. And give me enthusiasm, give me a desire to learn and a desire to be part of an organisation. And we did expand the group, know, you and I think Suzanne is giving me the credit for that. I think it was Suzanne’s idea, but we all agreed immediately because, and do you know what, if we’d had 25 jobs, we would have taken probably the group of people who were in the room if we could have, but we expanded to 15, and it’s great to hear Solomon with the impact that the role that Ian had picked out around the analyst job around Salesforce and the work that he was doing. But it’s great to hear that. But yeah, I would have— if we could have, we would have taken more. And I think to a certain extent, we felt great for the roles that we were going to offer, and we felt a little bit sorry that we didn’t have more potential vacancies to bring people in on. But, you know, just absolutely fantastic. And as I say, down to the people that came into that room, they were such a great bunch of people.
Breakout Room 5: I want to move to Suzanne in a minute to speak about the program and the training involved in it once those offers had been made. But I want to circle back to Derek because some words I’m hearing here, I’m hearing about people being amazed, overwhelmed, stunned, maybe even surprised at the talent they saw coming into that room. Derek, I got the impression you perhaps would not have been surprised and that you knew about this great well of talent out there. Were you surprised or did you know it was there all along?
Speaker D: Hi, Aoifinn. Great, great question. And if I’d be really honest, one of the most magical days in the 17 years, I think now, of running Entrepreneurs in Action was the first day that Solomon mentioned when we had 125 young people arrive for a 9 o’clock start in the pouring rain. I remember it was pouring with rain and somebody said to me, can you go downstairs? Just look outside of the doors of the college and see what— just look and see what’s going on. And I remember coming downstairs and I was like, ‘Why are you calling me to watch, to see what’s happening?’ And I looked out in the pouring rain, and there was 125 young people queuing patiently whilst we started the registration process at 8:15 in the morning. And for me, you know, sometimes we get caught up with this narrative about what’s wrong with young people, I just looked at it and said, this is what is right about young people. They wanted to work, they had their— they were suited, they were booted, they came there, they just— they were just so well mannered. They filed through, nobody complained that it was raining. I remember doing the opening speech to the group and I scripted something and I just tore it up because I was so overwhelmed by all the young people in the room that I just said that today is the start of a journey, it’s not about your CV, it’s about your talent, you know, give it your best shot, this program could change your life. And lots of people say that, and I think the beauty of it, and listening to Solomon today is that you never really get an opportunity to see the impact of the work that you do and, and hear it firsthand from somebody. You, you kind of think you are making a difference, but I honestly believe that the work we do changes lives. And essentially, this program is underpinned but and what Solomon’s demonstrated or shared in his journey is that if you’re given an opportunity, it can truly change your life. Work changes lives because he’s— and we must find out, you know, what he’s— I’m really keen to find out what he’s gone on to do. But, you know, just Ian having that opportunity to spot talent, not by CV, you know, just through this process of seeing somebody coming in and actually performing at a task. And Ian had a hunch, which I said at the very beginning, that this process gives employers a chance to have a hunch, to look at somebody and say, we want to take that person. So I couldn’t have written the script better for Solomon to say that he hadn’t actually thought about the job. This was somebody’s hunch to give him the opportunity to do it. So to answer your question, Aoifinn, I wasn’t surprised, but I was pleasantly really happy by the journey and that everybody’s been on and especially what Solomon’s shared.
Breakout Room 5: Thanks, Derek. And I want to move now to Suzanne and Stewart to talk about the actual program. Once those hires have been made, that people are now in the firm being trained. Was it all plain sailing? Were there areas perhaps that, perhaps because there wasn’t maybe the awareness of these schemes before, that extra training was required? What was your experience in implementing the programme?
Speaker E: We were fortunate in that I think from day one what you saw with the group coming through the door was two things really. Firstly, the proudness to be chosen, and I think what that gave each of those candidates as they started their training program was the confidence to know that they deserved their place, they had earned their place. And I think the second thing that you really saw was the hunger, I’m going to describe it as, and the motivation to get on and do a good job. And in a lot of respects, I think the induction was probably smoother than it traditionally would have been because they had worked with the management team. So the management team had been part of the selection process down to the final 25, so they all were already familiar with a large group of the people that they would be working with. And in addition to that, I think that the pensions administration environment worked quite nicely with a programme of this times, such as lots of admin, I believe, would do the same, in that it’s quite structured as to how you would induct a candidate into the role, and you would move through the various stages of training. But I think my overall view of how did this work and did it give us extra challenges, I think I’d have to say no. I think it gave an advantage, and the advantage was that you really knew that each of those candidates they wanted to be there, so they wanted to be part of the organization, because part of that program had enabled them to learn more about the company they would be working with, so understand a bit more about Aon. So, I actually feel that it gave everybody an advantage rather than a disadvantage, because that knowing each other was already in place.
Breakout Room 5: And is this something that Aon has continued to do over the years, and will you continue to do it? How has it changed, if at all?
Speaker E: So, I’m not sure what Aon are currently doing working for LCP, but what I can say is that we have recently done a classroom-to-boardroom programme, and following on from that, we’re exploring other opportunities with Derek, so hopefully there’ll be some exciting stuff from the future. But from a personal perspective, I most certainly would get involved in running a similar programme again, because I think what it actually gives you as an employer is a real insight to the strengths and the talents that the individuals have. And Solomon’s story on how Ian chose him to be within his area, I think that really demonstrates that in those sessions, you get to see what someone can bring to your business. Which you wouldn’t necessarily see through the traditional interview process where you might have nerves or a limited amount of time. So I think, yeah, most certainly I would definitely get involved again. Some key points from the programme and the whole process that might be worth adding, and that’s really, for me, it was about watching the journey through from day one right through to those, the talent embedded in the workplace, and looking at that day-to-day interaction and the value they were really bringing to the business. And that wasn’t just because we were fortunate enough to have a great talent pool that we brought in, but I think it was two-way learning. I think there was a lot of learning for the current teams within the organization on what they could learn from that group of young people that came in with that enthusiasm and that commitment, knowing that they’d been successful. And I think what that really did was across the whole, whole office within Croydon, it uplifted the motivation of the whole team. So the wider team, which at that point was about 100. So I think they really added quite a lot of motivation to the location. So it wasn’t just us being fortunate getting that talent pool, it was what they brought into the wider office. And I think that’s something that people wouldn’t expect to achieve for a programme such as this, but it actually had that real positive results for the whole location, and I think that was quite an important piece for me.
Breakout Room 5: So Stuart, would you agree with what Suzanne said? Would you have had a similar impression?
Speaker C: The only thing I was going to add was pretty much along what Suzanne was saying. I think the impact that this group, that that process, and I think the impact that the group had on the business, not even in just Croydon, I think across the board, I think was just so positive. And I think it brought a real drive to our Croydon office, which was a new office that was being built out. As I said, we were putting new clients in there, so it was a growth, it was part of our growth. And it just, I think it contributed to what was a really, really positive time and a really positive period, I think, within the business and certainly within my own career experience. I think it was good that you should never underestimate the impact of compact enthusiasm and just a great group of talent and what those people have on the people that are around them and the business that they’re in.
Breakout Room 5: So, Suzanne, you have a lot of experience in recruitment. Is it your experience that certain people perhaps are less well suited to the traditional CV and interview recruitment process, and perhaps are well suited to this kind of more of a session that Solomon has just described.
Speaker E: So, when we were sitting down making the decision after the presentations, there was a particular individual who— what became very clear throughout the whole programme was that they probably would not be successful through recruitment via this traditional CV approach. They were quite an introverted character. And I truly believe that there are people out there that this works for far better than, you know, going into a room, a buildup of nerves, because actually that period of time working with an organization allows all of that fear to be removed. So, you can actually see what they really have to bring. And this particular individual, who I won’t name, it became quite clear that they would be quite successful in an environment working with techie and systems-type work, and was actually successful as part of the programme. And I truly believe without a programme such as this, they would have struggled to find a place. And in fact, following up, having conversations with the individual after they were successful, that became clear that that was part of their journey. They had been trying to get through that interview process, and for whatever reason, with their personality and confidence, it just wasn’t possible. But this programme gave them that kickstart they needed with their career, and I think that’s quite an important message too.
Breakout Room 5: And just to clarify, in those sessions, how much time was spent perhaps between Salman and Ian? Maybe, Salman, you can answer this yourself. Was it a kind of a case study, an example of what you would do for him? How did you know that that was an area that you were suited for?
Speaker F: I’d say it was just, we had to do a final presentation as a group, and I remember my part was around technology and how we could use technology to, I guess, get people interested in pensions. And I think that was it. I don’t remember seeing him at any other session. It was just that one session, and I think I spoke for about 5, 6 minutes, and that was it.
Breakout Room 5: It was actually seeing perhaps, you, in a— you could maybe visualize you in the role that way, as opposed to a straight kind of an interview technique. It’s very interesting. You, Stuart, so you were involved in this program 7 years ago. Would you do something like this again, and do you think it has potential for broader application?
Speaker C: So would I do it again? I absolutely would do it again. I think it’s, you know, when we did this and the circumstances under which we did it, I think were just perfect. I think there was a symbiotic relationship. We had a group of talent that were looking for an opportunity and we were looking for a group of people who were looking for an opportunity. I’d love to do it again. I think now, and particularly as we go into a post-COVID environment, I think that locations have become also less specific to business, and I think that opens up the UK to recruitment really across the whole of the UK, and let’s be honest, could be the whole of Europe and the whole of the world. But I think if we focus that on the UK, absolutely. I think if we’ve got pockets of talent as we had in Croydon. I think we’ve demonstrated we’ve got pockets of talent that if we can unlock that talent, we can create, I think, a great outcome from a business perspective and an even better outcome, I think, from an individual perspective, giving people confidence and giving them the ability to deliver something back to business, but also, I think, to build themselves. So I would definitely do this again. Derek and I keep in regular touch. I’d love to work with Suzanne and also Solomon again more locally, but I would love to do it again, definitely. And I think what we need to do is we need to think about how we adjust what we did from a Croydon perspective to a UK-wide, and I think if anything, the opportunities are greater in our post-COVID environment.
Breakout Room 5: Thanks, Stuart. So, Solomon, I think we’re all interested to hear what you’re doing now and what you have gone on to do after this experience. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker G: Yes. So from that job as a client analyst, I gained very important skills. Say the most important skill I gained was problem solving, and that’s pretty much what I do today. So I ended up actually building databases. That was one of my first experiences with Aon. I built databases in Microsoft Access and SharePoint just to gather information from colleagues, from client service managers at different parts of the country, just basically to reduce the amount of time spent doing admin and create some sort of reporting tool, essentially. And that’s literally set me up for every single job that I’ve been into since. And it’s just that problem-solving, reporting, making data easier to gather and analyze, and automating that whole process. That’s pretty much what I do. So I currently work for a consultancy called Kainos, and we do digital transformation. So what’s interesting about my tool and I— about my job right now, and I link it back to my first day, is I remember on that first day I didn’t have a clue what I was going to be doing or how I was going to be doing it. And what was great was I had a manager who pretty much gave me creative freedom in terms of how I solved every single problem. So the job that I do currently requires me to pick up new tools, tools I’ve never learned before. So we could go into a client’s environment and clients’ offices, and they might be using a database or tool or reporting tool that I’ve never seen before. And one of the primary reasons why I got this job, as I was told, was my, I guess, my interest and ability to pick up new tools without any prior knowledge on the fly. So I’ve recently just finished a 6-week project, burn project, that I had to learn every single technology that we used on the fly. And it was successful. So I would say what the job has set me up for is that ability to go into the unknown with an open mind, very optimistic, very positive, and succeed, essentially.
Breakout Room 5: That’s great. Thank you. So Derek, looking to the future yourself, one of the areas I want to ask you about is, did this program— we haven’t touched on diversity in this discussion yet. And did the program and the group you employed, did it reflect the local diversity in the Croydon population? And was that one of the objectives? And would programs like this perhaps be one of the keys to unlocking some of the underrepresentation we have in investment jobs or in financial jobs in general, in terms of diversity?
Speaker D: Aoifinn, that’s a really good question. So we didn’t open it up as a diversity-led program. We focused on talent and we said that we would recruit based on CVs, based on what we saw in terms of young people’s performance in front of the executives over the two phases of the program. What was very, very interesting is that although it wasn’t a diversity program, we delivered diversity. So one of the interesting stories about Croydon is that there’s South Croydon and there’s North Croydon, and North Croydon has a higher level of social people within that social deprivation bracket than South Croydon. We delivered, I would say, 90% of the young people who came through the job centre and made it through the assessment phases were from North Croydon. In addition to that, the ethnic mix was really balanced. I think it was about 50% Black and Asian who got through, and, and the gender mix was brilliant as well. It was 50/50. And what I really enjoyed is that we had a talent-based or talent-led recruitment process, and it delivered everything that we try and engineer in terms of recruitment without trying to engineer it. So we just focused on not on the CVs and just that conversation with Ian, having 6 minutes to observe and speak. Well, he had a bit longer. He would have spoken to Solomon after the presentation, but it was about seeing how people fitted within the organisation. And the other observation I’d love to share is that when I spoke to— we did a follow-up session 3 months into the roles, and we went back and we filmed everybody. And what I found fascinating— what fascinated me about that was that every young person who we spoke to was working to for Aon said that they would never have applied for Aon as a role because one, they hadn’t heard of Aon for some, but two, many of them didn’t have the confidence, saw it as too big an organization to recruit them. And I think that’s also one of the challenges for young people is that they kind of switch off and a little bit around that comment which Solomon said, ‘You know, there’s 125 people there. Am I going to be the one who gets a job?’ And it’s, you know, it’s really important, especially in these times that we’re in with, um, the huge unemployment figures, that young people keep that hope, have that self-belief, have that confidence in themselves that anything’s obtainable and it’s up to them to obtain it. And if they have that self-belief, they will achieve.
Speaker E: Great.
Breakout Room 5: Well, thank you, Derek. The last thing I want to ask you about is the partnerships. You mentioned before that this was done in partnership with Croydon Council. What exactly did that partnership entail?
Speaker D: Yeah, so we worked with the CEO of Croydon Council to promote the job opportunities. So around the table, the stakeholders were Croydon Council, Jobcentre Plus, which we had very senior level buy-in, and Jobcentre Plus helped in the screening. I think 1,000 young people wanted to get a role, and we got it down to 125. We also worked with Croydon College, who supplied the venue, and they were a brilliant partner to work with. And through the council, we’re able to also give the program some high-profile support at the GLA, and we had the local MPs also getting involved in the program. So I thought it was a very positive experience for Aon in that one, they got the employees that they were able to recruit, but also they got some very positive profile which they were able to reference in business pitches, etc. In terms of lots of people talk about doing socially based activities, they were able now to reference something which they’d done in Croydon and the impact that it had. So partnerships were critical, and the most important partner was AON and the flexibility of Stuart and Suzanne in terms of working together. And you collectively, know, we were able to make a real difference.
Breakout Room 5: Well, that’s certainly something I’m hearing, that it really— whereas everybody may want to create hope and opportunity for young people, it really does take a village and everyone showing up and making an effort and making it happen. And thank you to all of you, to Stuart, Suzanne, and Derek, for showing up and making it happen. And thanks in particular to Solomon for coming that day and for being a great example to a whole new generation of youth as to what exactly is possible. Thank you very much for listening to the 50 Faces breakout room. I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Since recording this breakout room, Derek Brown has participated in a further CV-less recruitment pilot, this time for Fidelity International. The program was conducted during lockdown in January 2021 and resulted in the employment of 13 apprentices who were recruited without reference to their CV. The participants described the program as life-changing and said that it had a positive impact on their mental health. The Fidelity executives found it to be an innovative and effective way to recruit entry-level talent into their business. And now let’s hear again from Sakir Nusseibi to talk about an apprenticeship program that the International Business of Federated Hermes is putting into place this year. Once more, we thank the International Business of Federated Hermes for production support for this episode.
Aoifinn Devitt: When Mr. Floyd’s death brought to everybody’s attention, including ours at Federated Hermes International, that despite thinking that we’ve done as much as we could for particularly ethnic integration, we fell far below the mark when it came to integrating Black communities. We had a very close look at why that is. If you looked at our BAME representation, it was pretty much where we’d want it to be, which is higher than the national average and higher than the London average. But when you looked at the Black participation in our company, it was very, very low. And all the efforts that came afterwards in trying to create opportunities to allow fellow citizens from Black communities a step up the ladder into the corporate world kind of approached it in a traditional way. And by that, I mean, there was many excellent projects, but all of them aimed at graduate trainees. Now, that presupposes that you have somebody who has decided, in fact, to go to university. That presupposes two things. One is that they’ve had the opportunity both at home and at school to get the grades to go to university. And secondly, that you’re presuming that they, in fact, believe that submitting themselves to the debt that university entails will pay back over time, even though we know that in fact many times opportunity does not do so. And so we were trying to get to the heart of the problem, in fact, and get around this traditional way of approaching it. And like everything else in investment management, our approach was simply to go back in history to the way that asset management used to do it many, many years ago for the privileged, funnily enough. So if you go back to the ’70s and the ’80s, quite often people from privileged backgrounds would come straight to the city from schools, sometimes from the army. And the idea was that as they joined, they would be trained on the job. Nowadays, of course, most people who come to the city have done finance at universities, are really interested in finance, mathematics, and so on. So what we decided to do was, look, let’s use the same system that was used all these years ago to entrench privilege and actually turn it on its head and use it to break down privilege and promote diversity. And so our program is to go to high schools in the United Kingdom and in London and to try to see who’s really interested with no prerequisites and bring them on board and train them as an apprentice. And if they like the job and they find that they have an aptitude, to then sponsor them. Through a CFA program. And so that becomes an equivalent of a degree. And that way you break the barrier because you open up the opportunity for people who had not looked at finance as a way of a career to actually really come into it. We’re excited by it. It’s new, and I hope it works. But I think at the very least, it will help some people break the glass ceiling and come into the city from more deprived communities in and around London and the UK. So we’d like to go for 10 apprentices per annum, and then you have to assume that they would leave you after a while, but actually one of the best things that you can do is if they then leave you to go to other firms, so you start feeding them into the system.
Breakout Room 5: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: If you look at the way that it seems social mobility works, is once you’ve established a beachhead from an underprivileged community, generally speaking, that beachhead becomes one in which other members of that community land and then can spread around into the areas they’re trying to break into.
Breakout Room 5: That was Sakir Nashebi, Chief Executive Officer of the International Business of Federated Hermes, whom we thank for supporting the production costs of this episode. Welcome to our breakout room, a spinoff of the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m Aoifinn Devitt. The UK unemployment rate has risen to 4.9% in the 3 months to October 2020. With 370,000 people made redundant. Official data recently published shows that the annual fall in employment is the highest in a decade, with the number of people in paid work 280,000 lower than a year earlier, taking the employment rate to only 75%. The government has said after the figures released that protecting lives and livelihoods is our number one priority, and they particularly underscored the Kickstart scheme for unemployed young people as they meant to ensure that nobody is left without hope or opportunity. Employment is also an important source of dignity, and as we all know, the focus on the UN Sustainable Development Goals, SDG 8, looks to decent work and to promote sustained, inclusive, and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment, and decent work for all. With this focus on youth unemployment, this, we have here in this breakout room, a rare opportunity to see the impact of a program which targeted unemployed youth 7 years ago. Many of the programmes and initiatives that we see are focused on now, but it’s very rare to be able to look back and look at the impact of a programme that had already happened, to look at the impact it’s had on participants, but also on those who sponsored and delivered it. Youth employment has always been a large focus for the UK government, particularly in 2011 after the financial crash. At that time, the government launched a Futures Job Fund in a bid to provide opportunities for a growing number of unemployed youth. That was also the year that summer riots took place across the UK. In Croydon, we saw the image of a burning Reeves furniture store featuring on news stories across the world. It was at that time a groundbreaking programme was put together by our panellists here in order to focus on the problem of youth unemployment. I’m joined here by Stuart Heatley, Managing Director of Capita Pensions, Suzanne Taylor, Senior Consultant at LCP, Salomon Beyoud, who was a participant in that youth unemployment programme, and Derek Brown, Chief Executive of Entrepreneurs in Action, whose brainchild the programme was and put together the programme with Stuart. I’d like to first start with Stuart to speak about why at that time, 7 years ago, he was interested in the area of youth unemployment and what it was about it that triggered an interest in him. Stuart, welcome. Can you tell us about why you decided to invest in a programme targeting unemployed young people from Croydon?
Speaker C: Hi, thanks very much. I just start by saying this is one of the most interesting and rewarding things that I think I’ve done in my career, and certainly as a senior leader within business. It was a time of significant growth, and we needed to look at a different way of recruiting and bringing people into our business. And I met with Derek, and I was really interested in what he talked about around CVs and getting past CVs. I’ve always been a great believer in bringing people on, and when you talk to people, that actually, really, if you’re relying only on their CV, then you’re not really getting to understand about the person that you’re bringing on. And Derek talked to me about the program that he had, the potential that he was seeing on a day-to-day basis amongst some of the the people that he was working with, and it really captured my imagination. It really made me think, you know, we need to approach this in a different way. And with the support from Suzanne, who had taken on the, the new office as part of her overall leadership, we embarked on the program. And really, the program was about tapping into a pool of potential that I think conventionally employers wouldn’t look at. And like I say, one of the most interesting and rewarding things that I’ve done.
Breakout Room 5: And just in terms of your own personal experience, I think that you have always been focused on recruiting based on potential and talent and not necessarily on a narrow definition of academic success. Can you just talk a little bit about that experience?
Speaker C: Yeah, and it starts with myself. I didn’t I left school, and I didn’t go to university. I started splitting print. That was my job with a ruler. And I was given an opportunity, and I joined what at the time was a very entrepreneurial business. And I got great opportunities to work my way through the business and learn a lot of different things that ultimately meant that at the time, I was the managing director of the Aon pensions and benefits business. I think as I’ve approached recruitment with both senior leaders and also bringing people into the businesses that I’ve worked for, I’ve tried to look for that potential and look beyond necessarily people who have been to university and specialized in, in a particular subject. It doesn’t mean that we don’t recruit graduates, of course we do, and that is definitely something that will continue for good reason, but But what we’ve also got to do is we’ve got to be mindful of either through circumstance or will. Mine was more through will. I decided I didn’t want to go to university. I wanted to do a whole lot of other things. But through circumstance or through will, people won’t go on to secondary education. But it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be channeling that talent and channeling the potential into our business, because that’s going to be great for business.
Breakout Room 5: And just moving to you now, Derek. Thanks, Stewart. What was your pitch? You heard, you were obviously witnessing the situation in Croydon. You’ve been focused on youth unemployment for some time. What’s your view on how corporations currently recruit versus how they should recruit? And what was your pitch to Stewart?
Speaker D: Thank you, Aoifinn, and Stewart’s sort of given you, set the scene really. Yeah, so I was introduced to Stewart, and we had a conversation around recruitment. He was talking very much about the Croydon office, and I pitched him and said, look, you’ve got the office here, Stuart, would you not be interested in recruiting some local talent? The old adage of a big global insurance company looking to and engage with local talent. And Stuart said, you know, he liked the idea. And then I pushed and said, wouldn’t it be really interesting if we recruited in that old traditional way by talent and not by numbers? And what I mean by not by numbers, I think we’ve become obsessed then and today in recruiting young people into jobs by numbers. Numbers of the A*s that you get at GCSE, number of A-levels, what grades you get, have you got a first-class degree, did you go to one of the big Russell Group universities. And I, you know, I said to Stuart that there are lots of talented people who would get, who’d really value the opportunity being recruited on their talent and giving the business leaders the opportunity to have a hunch and recruit. And Stuart’s already talked about somebody giving him an opportunity, and I think the present recruitment, the existing and today’s recruitment process, processes focus predominantly on academic resource, academic results. And I’ve often asked leaders Many of them wouldn’t get a job today if they were going to be screened on the academic qualifications that their HR departments are looking at for entry-level jobs. So huge number of people who have got into business and proved themselves, and Stuart and many others are like that who will be listening to this podcast. So I pitched Stuart that we would design the UK’s first CV-less recruitment process, and he liked the idea, he liked the idea, but he did give me a warning that if it didn’t work, he did give me that look, and unfortunately we can’t see Stuart, but he is over 6 foot and a big rugby player, and I knew that I had to get this job right. So he set the scene in a really polite way that, you know, I’m going to back you, but go ahead and do it. And The opportunity to work in Croydon was a fabulous opportunity. As you mentioned, huge amounts of negativity about the Croydon brand. We, you know, the Croydon was at the height of every news report, the burning Reeves building, but there was a lot of talent in Croydon. And I think that it’s just about giving young people a chance, an opportunity, and getting their confidence up so they can apply for a big global brand such as Aon. So from our perspective, we put together the program, we partnered with Jobcentre Plus and the Croydon Council, and I’ll talk about that a bit later. But essentially the pitch was to Stuart, give these young people a chance, move away from CVs, move away from recruiting and numbers, and let’s create a level playing field where people, young people, could be recruited based on their talent and accept the opportunity.
Breakout Room 5: Thank you, Derek. And let’s move to Suzanne to talk about translating this ideal into reality, because I understand that you managed the program and oversaw the entire recruitment process from day one to the final presentation. Can you walk us through, first of all, your initial thoughts as you went into that? What the selection process was like and how you managed it.
Speaker E: Hi, yes, so I can remember the first conversation that I had with Stuart, actually. We were sitting down having a chat and he raised with me the idea, and I think very early on I became quite excited because I live locally in South West London and really understand some of the challenges that was faced by the young people. But at the same time, I was living in this corporate world going through the process as Derek described, where you have this CV approach to interviewing. So, instantly, the whole approach of the programme really became quite exciting because it felt that you could do something locally for local people. And as Stuart touched on, we were setting up a new office, so it was a great opportunity. So, the first point really around what we started to do was I started to talk to my wider management team And really early on, I realised that I wasn’t the only one that was quite excited about this. It was being received really positive with the existing staff that were working in the office with me. So, I think from very, very early on, it was a really new opportunity, quite exciting, and to make a difference in the local community, and that really stood out. In terms of what we did with working on the programme, I think what was really great for us when I look back on it was having that opportunity to see individual candidates for more than an hour. So to get to actually build a programme with EIA on how you could come together with a group of young people and really understand what they had to give. And I think it would be fair to say that on the first day where we worked in the college, we were really overwhelmed with the enthusiasm and the motivation and the commitment from young people. It was pretty amazing.
Breakout Room 5: That’s great. And in terms of the number of candidates, I understand that you started with 10, but you did ultimately increase to 15. Can you just talk us through that?
Speaker E: Yeah, I can actually remember when we were sitting at the end of the boardroom session with the leadership team, we were trying to decide who the final 10 would be. And it would be fair to say that that wasn’t an easy conversation. There was lots of conflict in discussions. And in fairness, I think Stuart instantly agreed that we would increase that number to 15. But, but I think even at that point, we were quite disappointed that there was so much talent in that room. We would have liked to have increased that number further, because what you really saw from the young people was all of the strengths that they would bring into an organisation that you wouldn’t necessarily see through an interview process, even if you went through one or two different stages. Because what you were actually seeing was these young people working in that environment as if they were placed in that business with you. So it was absolutely It was quite overwhelming, actually. I think it would be fair to say I found it very emotional to see what young people had to give.
Breakout Room 5: Well, thank you. And moving now to Solomon, I’d love to hear your personal story in terms of, are you a son of Croydon, for example, and how you came to hear about this program and what you felt during this process?
Speaker F: Thank you. So for me, actually, I have quite a different experience in terms of I was in a bad place, really. I had, um, just finished uni, couldn’t get a job. I studied accounting and finance and was just struggling to get an interview. Like, I’d applied for so many jobs, but one thing I didn’t do, which my mom insisted I did, was sign up for the job center because I had some savings prior, because I had worked at the London Olympics the year before. So I had some savings, and I really didn’t want to going to the job center. In my opinion, it’s just not the place you go if you want to get a job. That was my perspective. And, um, so I avoided job center. But what was interesting was just I woke up one day and I decided to take my mom’s advice and actually just go into the job center. And I remember going in the first day and thinking, oh, what am I doing here? Don’t like this place at all. And I remember signing up with an advisor who looked at my CV and was like, what are you doing here? Like, you’ve got a degree, you seem to, you know, like this place isn’t for you, essentially. And it was even more depressing. So I remember that first week not going great, and then came back the next week and my advisor was ill. It was someone else. And she looked at my CV again and she was like, do you know what, I’m going to give you the advice that I gave my kids. Stop looking for a job, look for an employer that has room for you to grow and for you to eventually get to what you want to do. And then she um, mentioned, the, the program with EIA backed by Aon Hewitt. And she— I’d never heard of Aon Hewitt at the time. And she said, trust me, just apply for it. It’s a completely different process. All you need is your GCSEs and they’re going to take you through the process and just, just go along to it. I was like, okay, sure, why not? Got nothing to lose. And that was pretty much how I ended up on the program. I almost didn’t go to that, um, meeting that day, which was— now thinking about it, it’s, it’s, it’s almost crazy. And I would say it was a great decision, Derek, to partner with the job center because I almost imagine it could have been anything else. It could have been with an agency and so on and so forth. I think doing it with the job center was actually the perfect way to go about this in order to meet what the actual— what you were trying to do with this program. So that’s pretty much how I ended up on the program. And I must say, one thing that the program did for me was motivate me. I remember, um, I say, I think it was like just a couple days into, um, the process. I remember thinking, wow, I’m actually excited to get up now. I’m excited to go and do this. So every day I went, I was more— I was motivated. So that was the one thing it definitely gave me, which I didn’t realize, that I was demotivated. So, it motivated me.
Breakout Room 5: So, our other panelists have spoken about feeling overwhelmed in that room by the sheer talent, the energy, the enthusiasm. How did you feel when you were dealing with this potential employer? Did you feel overwhelmed? Did you feel that your confidence was growing in that setting?
Speaker F: Yes, I’d say, actually, I remember the first stage, there was actually quite a lot of people. I don’t remember what the number was, but I’m tempted to say it was hundreds. And I remember walking in thinking, seriously, 10 jobs? There was quite a lot of people in the room, and I remember feeling overwhelmed thinking, wow, that really, really have to be you a, know, special 10 to get the job because it’s quite a lot of people in there. And I remember feeling overwhelmed at that stage even before we got to the final 25. I think when we did the group activities in the breakout rooms that I remember feeling overwhelmed and almost couldn’t speak because there’s just so many people and so much going on.
Breakout Room 5: No, it’s definitely, it sounds like quite a unique experience. And what I think is also very interesting is that you had a university degree, but even still, you weren’t aware of programs like this. And this is something that has come up in other breakout rooms, that perhaps the industry doesn’t do enough of a good job in getting itself out there to potential talent. And it’s only through programs like this, maybe, that we can plug gap. So how did you feel when you were offered the position, when you were one of the lucky 15, I suppose, if there was 15 positions?
Speaker F: Yes, I’m actually— I’ll go further and say I was one of the even luckier 5 because I didn’t get one of the jobs that was originally advertised. I got an even better job, which has pretty much set me up for what I’ve achieved right now. So it was an analyst, analyst job, and it was something that even till today I get friends and family questioning me, like, how did you get that job? And when I told them the story, they’re like, oh wow, because I didn’t study anything to get that job. It was pretty much, um, um, I’d say it was Ian, um, Ian Bloxham, who’s not here today, but he wanted me in his team He, he was involved in the process and he saw my presentation and he wanted me in his team. So I ended up getting a different job to what was advertised, which was amazing. And that’s been the perfect job because I guess that talent that he saw in me, I didn’t see myself. And since then it’s just grown. Like, I can’t explain to you or express how much it’s changed my life completely. It was something I never considered doing. And just from this program and this process, I’ve been able to develop a skill and develop a talent that had always been there, I guess, but I wasn’t aware of.
Breakout Room 5: Great. I’d like to just go back to some of the other panel members in terms of their— maybe the impressions it made on them personally, whether it be the initial day or the program as it evolved. Back to you, Stewart. Can you maybe speak about some of the presentations you saw that day? And how the program evolved in your eyes.
Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So I wasn’t involved in the initial selection day, and as Suzanne said, that she, she really was the sponsor of this and really, I think, made this successful for us and also for the people that were involved alongside Derek. But, you know, we had a session where we, at the end of this, where we got the presentations and where this was where we were going to select our 10 people. And I’m not sure I was overwhelmed, I was just, I was absolutely, I found it incredible that we had managed to get such a wonderful group of people that wanted to be part of our organization, that wanted the opportunity, and had not just done the day with Derek and then come along to have a conversation with us, but actually they’d done a lot of preparation. And they’d been separated into groups, and they’d been given particular topics that were close to our heart in terms of how we served our clients or how we could see the market moving. And they’d come in, and they presented as groups, and they’d done the work together. They put a lot of effort into it. And I was just amazed. And it felt like such an affirmation of the direction that we had taken. But the affirmation was nothing to do with us, the affirmation was to do with the talent that had come into the room, the enthusiasm that was there. I think Suzanne mentioned enthusiasm, the enthusiasm, the desire to learn, the desire to be part of our organization. Give me that any day over a group of people who are kind of just looking at a whole number of jobs to see and throwing their CV out. And give me enthusiasm, give me a desire to learn and a desire to be part of an organisation. And we did expand the group, know, you and I think Suzanne is giving me the credit for that. I think it was Suzanne’s idea, but we all agreed immediately because, and do you know what, if we’d had 25 jobs, we would have taken probably the group of people who were in the room if we could have, but we expanded to 15, and it’s great to hear Solomon with the impact that the role that Ian had picked out around the analyst job around Salesforce and the work that he was doing. But it’s great to hear that. But yeah, I would have— if we could have, we would have taken more. And I think to a certain extent, we felt great for the roles that we were going to offer, and we felt a little bit sorry that we didn’t have more potential vacancies to bring people in on. But, you know, just absolutely fantastic. And as I say, down to the people that came into that room, they were such a great bunch of people.
Breakout Room 5: I want to move to Suzanne in a minute to speak about the program and the training involved in it once those offers had been made. But I want to circle back to Derek because some words I’m hearing here, I’m hearing about people being amazed, overwhelmed, stunned, maybe even surprised at the talent they saw coming into that room. Derek, I got the impression you perhaps would not have been surprised and that you knew about this great well of talent out there. Were you surprised or did you know it was there all along?
Speaker D: Hi, Aoifinn. Great, great question. And if I’d be really honest, one of the most magical days in the 17 years, I think now, of running Entrepreneurs in Action was the first day that Solomon mentioned when we had 125 young people arrive for a 9 o’clock start in the pouring rain. I remember it was pouring with rain and somebody said to me, can you go downstairs? Just look outside of the doors of the college and see what— just look and see what’s going on. And I remember coming downstairs and I was like, ‘Why are you calling me to watch, to see what’s happening?’ And I looked out in the pouring rain, and there was 125 young people queuing patiently whilst we started the registration process at 8:15 in the morning. And for me, you know, sometimes we get caught up with this narrative about what’s wrong with young people, I just looked at it and said, this is what is right about young people. They wanted to work, they had their— they were suited, they were booted, they came there, they just— they were just so well mannered. They filed through, nobody complained that it was raining. I remember doing the opening speech to the group and I scripted something and I just tore it up because I was so overwhelmed by all the young people in the room that I just said that today is the start of a journey, it’s not about your CV, it’s about your talent, you know, give it your best shot, this program could change your life. And lots of people say that, and I think the beauty of it, and listening to Solomon today is that you never really get an opportunity to see the impact of the work that you do and, and hear it firsthand from somebody. You, you kind of think you are making a difference, but I honestly believe that the work we do changes lives. And essentially, this program is underpinned but and what Solomon’s demonstrated or shared in his journey is that if you’re given an opportunity, it can truly change your life. Work changes lives because he’s— and we must find out, you know, what he’s— I’m really keen to find out what he’s gone on to do. But, you know, just Ian having that opportunity to spot talent, not by CV, you know, just through this process of seeing somebody coming in and actually performing at a task. And Ian had a hunch, which I said at the very beginning, that this process gives employers a chance to have a hunch, to look at somebody and say, we want to take that person. So I couldn’t have written the script better for Solomon to say that he hadn’t actually thought about the job. This was somebody’s hunch to give him the opportunity to do it. So to answer your question, Aoifinn, I wasn’t surprised, but I was pleasantly really happy by the journey and that everybody’s been on and especially what Solomon’s shared.
Breakout Room 5: Thanks, Derek. And I want to move now to Suzanne and Stewart to talk about the actual program. Once those hires have been made, that people are now in the firm being trained. Was it all plain sailing? Were there areas perhaps that, perhaps because there wasn’t maybe the awareness of these schemes before, that extra training was required? What was your experience in implementing the programme?
Speaker E: We were fortunate in that I think from day one what you saw with the group coming through the door was two things really. Firstly, the proudness to be chosen, and I think what that gave each of those candidates as they started their training program was the confidence to know that they deserved their place, they had earned their place. And I think the second thing that you really saw was the hunger, I’m going to describe it as, and the motivation to get on and do a good job. And in a lot of respects, I think the induction was probably smoother than it traditionally would have been because they had worked with the management team. So the management team had been part of the selection process down to the final 25, so they all were already familiar with a large group of the people that they would be working with. And in addition to that, I think that the pensions administration environment worked quite nicely with a programme of this times, such as lots of admin, I believe, would do the same, in that it’s quite structured as to how you would induct a candidate into the role, and you would move through the various stages of training. But I think my overall view of how did this work and did it give us extra challenges, I think I’d have to say no. I think it gave an advantage, and the advantage was that you really knew that each of those candidates they wanted to be there, so they wanted to be part of the organization, because part of that program had enabled them to learn more about the company they would be working with, so understand a bit more about Aon. So, I actually feel that it gave everybody an advantage rather than a disadvantage, because that knowing each other was already in place.
Breakout Room 5: And is this something that Aon has continued to do over the years, and will you continue to do it? How has it changed, if at all?
Speaker E: So, I’m not sure what Aon are currently doing working for LCP, but what I can say is that we have recently done a classroom-to-boardroom programme, and following on from that, we’re exploring other opportunities with Derek, so hopefully there’ll be some exciting stuff from the future. But from a personal perspective, I most certainly would get involved in running a similar programme again, because I think what it actually gives you as an employer is a real insight to the strengths and the talents that the individuals have. And Solomon’s story on how Ian chose him to be within his area, I think that really demonstrates that in those sessions, you get to see what someone can bring to your business. Which you wouldn’t necessarily see through the traditional interview process where you might have nerves or a limited amount of time. So I think, yeah, most certainly I would definitely get involved again. Some key points from the programme and the whole process that might be worth adding, and that’s really, for me, it was about watching the journey through from day one right through to those, the talent embedded in the workplace, and looking at that day-to-day interaction and the value they were really bringing to the business. And that wasn’t just because we were fortunate enough to have a great talent pool that we brought in, but I think it was two-way learning. I think there was a lot of learning for the current teams within the organization on what they could learn from that group of young people that came in with that enthusiasm and that commitment, knowing that they’d been successful. And I think what that really did was across the whole, whole office within Croydon, it uplifted the motivation of the whole team. So the wider team, which at that point was about 100. So I think they really added quite a lot of motivation to the location. So it wasn’t just us being fortunate getting that talent pool, it was what they brought into the wider office. And I think that’s something that people wouldn’t expect to achieve for a programme such as this, but it actually had that real positive results for the whole location, and I think that was quite an important piece for me.
Breakout Room 5: So Stuart, would you agree with what Suzanne said? Would you have had a similar impression?
Speaker C: The only thing I was going to add was pretty much along what Suzanne was saying. I think the impact that this group, that that process, and I think the impact that the group had on the business, not even in just Croydon, I think across the board, I think was just so positive. And I think it brought a real drive to our Croydon office, which was a new office that was being built out. As I said, we were putting new clients in there, so it was a growth, it was part of our growth. And it just, I think it contributed to what was a really, really positive time and a really positive period, I think, within the business and certainly within my own career experience. I think it was good that you should never underestimate the impact of compact enthusiasm and just a great group of talent and what those people have on the people that are around them and the business that they’re in.
Breakout Room 5: So, Suzanne, you have a lot of experience in recruitment. Is it your experience that certain people perhaps are less well suited to the traditional CV and interview recruitment process, and perhaps are well suited to this kind of more of a session that Solomon has just described.
Speaker E: So, when we were sitting down making the decision after the presentations, there was a particular individual who— what became very clear throughout the whole programme was that they probably would not be successful through recruitment via this traditional CV approach. They were quite an introverted character. And I truly believe that there are people out there that this works for far better than, you know, going into a room, a buildup of nerves, because actually that period of time working with an organization allows all of that fear to be removed. So, you can actually see what they really have to bring. And this particular individual, who I won’t name, it became quite clear that they would be quite successful in an environment working with techie and systems-type work, and was actually successful as part of the programme. And I truly believe without a programme such as this, they would have struggled to find a place. And in fact, following up, having conversations with the individual after they were successful, that became clear that that was part of their journey. They had been trying to get through that interview process, and for whatever reason, with their personality and confidence, it just wasn’t possible. But this programme gave them that kickstart they needed with their career, and I think that’s quite an important message too.
Breakout Room 5: And just to clarify, in those sessions, how much time was spent perhaps between Salman and Ian? Maybe, Salman, you can answer this yourself. Was it a kind of a case study, an example of what you would do for him? How did you know that that was an area that you were suited for?
Speaker F: I’d say it was just, we had to do a final presentation as a group, and I remember my part was around technology and how we could use technology to, I guess, get people interested in pensions. And I think that was it. I don’t remember seeing him at any other session. It was just that one session, and I think I spoke for about 5, 6 minutes, and that was it.
Breakout Room 5: It was actually seeing perhaps, you, in a— you could maybe visualize you in the role that way, as opposed to a straight kind of an interview technique. It’s very interesting. You, Stuart, so you were involved in this program 7 years ago. Would you do something like this again, and do you think it has potential for broader application?
Speaker C: So would I do it again? I absolutely would do it again. I think it’s, you know, when we did this and the circumstances under which we did it, I think were just perfect. I think there was a symbiotic relationship. We had a group of talent that were looking for an opportunity and we were looking for a group of people who were looking for an opportunity. I’d love to do it again. I think now, and particularly as we go into a post-COVID environment, I think that locations have become also less specific to business, and I think that opens up the UK to recruitment really across the whole of the UK, and let’s be honest, could be the whole of Europe and the whole of the world. But I think if we focus that on the UK, absolutely. I think if we’ve got pockets of talent as we had in Croydon. I think we’ve demonstrated we’ve got pockets of talent that if we can unlock that talent, we can create, I think, a great outcome from a business perspective and an even better outcome, I think, from an individual perspective, giving people confidence and giving them the ability to deliver something back to business, but also, I think, to build themselves. So I would definitely do this again. Derek and I keep in regular touch. I’d love to work with Suzanne and also Solomon again more locally, but I would love to do it again, definitely. And I think what we need to do is we need to think about how we adjust what we did from a Croydon perspective to a UK-wide, and I think if anything, the opportunities are greater in our post-COVID environment.
Breakout Room 5: Thanks, Stuart. So, Solomon, I think we’re all interested to hear what you’re doing now and what you have gone on to do after this experience. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker G: Yes. So from that job as a client analyst, I gained very important skills. Say the most important skill I gained was problem solving, and that’s pretty much what I do today. So I ended up actually building databases. That was one of my first experiences with Aon. I built databases in Microsoft Access and SharePoint just to gather information from colleagues, from client service managers at different parts of the country, just basically to reduce the amount of time spent doing admin and create some sort of reporting tool, essentially. And that’s literally set me up for every single job that I’ve been into since. And it’s just that problem-solving, reporting, making data easier to gather and analyze, and automating that whole process. That’s pretty much what I do. So I currently work for a consultancy called Kainos, and we do digital transformation. So what’s interesting about my tool and I— about my job right now, and I link it back to my first day, is I remember on that first day I didn’t have a clue what I was going to be doing or how I was going to be doing it. And what was great was I had a manager who pretty much gave me creative freedom in terms of how I solved every single problem. So the job that I do currently requires me to pick up new tools, tools I’ve never learned before. So we could go into a client’s environment and clients’ offices, and they might be using a database or tool or reporting tool that I’ve never seen before. And one of the primary reasons why I got this job, as I was told, was my, I guess, my interest and ability to pick up new tools without any prior knowledge on the fly. So I’ve recently just finished a 6-week project, burn project, that I had to learn every single technology that we used on the fly. And it was successful. So I would say what the job has set me up for is that ability to go into the unknown with an open mind, very optimistic, very positive, and succeed, essentially.
Breakout Room 5: That’s great. Thank you. So Derek, looking to the future yourself, one of the areas I want to ask you about is, did this program— we haven’t touched on diversity in this discussion yet. And did the program and the group you employed, did it reflect the local diversity in the Croydon population? And was that one of the objectives? And would programs like this perhaps be one of the keys to unlocking some of the underrepresentation we have in investment jobs or in financial jobs in general, in terms of diversity?
Speaker D: Aoifinn, that’s a really good question. So we didn’t open it up as a diversity-led program. We focused on talent and we said that we would recruit based on CVs, based on what we saw in terms of young people’s performance in front of the executives over the two phases of the program. What was very, very interesting is that although it wasn’t a diversity program, we delivered diversity. So one of the interesting stories about Croydon is that there’s South Croydon and there’s North Croydon, and North Croydon has a higher level of social people within that social deprivation bracket than South Croydon. We delivered, I would say, 90% of the young people who came through the job centre and made it through the assessment phases were from North Croydon. In addition to that, the ethnic mix was really balanced. I think it was about 50% Black and Asian who got through, and, and the gender mix was brilliant as well. It was 50/50. And what I really enjoyed is that we had a talent-based or talent-led recruitment process, and it delivered everything that we try and engineer in terms of recruitment without trying to engineer it. So we just focused on not on the CVs and just that conversation with Ian, having 6 minutes to observe and speak. Well, he had a bit longer. He would have spoken to Solomon after the presentation, but it was about seeing how people fitted within the organisation. And the other observation I’d love to share is that when I spoke to— we did a follow-up session 3 months into the roles, and we went back and we filmed everybody. And what I found fascinating— what fascinated me about that was that every young person who we spoke to was working to for Aon said that they would never have applied for Aon as a role because one, they hadn’t heard of Aon for some, but two, many of them didn’t have the confidence, saw it as too big an organization to recruit them. And I think that’s also one of the challenges for young people is that they kind of switch off and a little bit around that comment which Solomon said, ‘You know, there’s 125 people there. Am I going to be the one who gets a job?’ And it’s, you know, it’s really important, especially in these times that we’re in with, um, the huge unemployment figures, that young people keep that hope, have that self-belief, have that confidence in themselves that anything’s obtainable and it’s up to them to obtain it. And if they have that self-belief, they will achieve.
Speaker E: Great.
Breakout Room 5: Well, thank you, Derek. The last thing I want to ask you about is the partnerships. You mentioned before that this was done in partnership with Croydon Council. What exactly did that partnership entail?
Speaker D: Yeah, so we worked with the CEO of Croydon Council to promote the job opportunities. So around the table, the stakeholders were Croydon Council, Jobcentre Plus, which we had very senior level buy-in, and Jobcentre Plus helped in the screening. I think 1,000 young people wanted to get a role, and we got it down to 125. We also worked with Croydon College, who supplied the venue, and they were a brilliant partner to work with. And through the council, we’re able to also give the program some high-profile support at the GLA, and we had the local MPs also getting involved in the program. So I thought it was a very positive experience for Aon in that one, they got the employees that they were able to recruit, but also they got some very positive profile which they were able to reference in business pitches, etc. In terms of lots of people talk about doing socially based activities, they were able now to reference something which they’d done in Croydon and the impact that it had. So partnerships were critical, and the most important partner was AON and the flexibility of Stuart and Suzanne in terms of working together. And you collectively, know, we were able to make a real difference.
Breakout Room 5: Well, that’s certainly something I’m hearing, that it really— whereas everybody may want to create hope and opportunity for young people, it really does take a village and everyone showing up and making an effort and making it happen. And thank you to all of you, to Stuart, Suzanne, and Derek, for showing up and making it happen. And thanks in particular to Solomon for coming that day and for being a great example to a whole new generation of youth as to what exactly is possible. Thank you very much for listening to the 50 Faces breakout room. I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Since recording this breakout room, Derek Brown has participated in a further CV-less recruitment pilot, this time for Fidelity International. The program was conducted during lockdown in January 2021 and resulted in the employment of 13 apprentices who were recruited without reference to their CV. The participants described the program as life-changing and said that it had a positive impact on their mental health. The Fidelity executives found it to be an innovative and effective way to recruit entry-level talent into their business. And now let’s hear again from Sakir Nusseibi to talk about an apprenticeship program that the International Business of Federated Hermes is putting into place this year. Once more, we thank the International Business of Federated Hermes for production support for this episode.
Aoifinn Devitt: When Mr. Floyd’s death brought to everybody’s attention, including ours at Federated Hermes International, that despite thinking that we’ve done as much as we could for particularly ethnic integration, we fell far below the mark when it came to integrating Black communities. We had a very close look at why that is. If you looked at our BAME representation, it was pretty much where we’d want it to be, which is higher than the national average and higher than the London average. But when you looked at the Black participation in our company, it was very, very low. And all the efforts that came afterwards in trying to create opportunities to allow fellow citizens from Black communities a step up the ladder into the corporate world kind of approached it in a traditional way. And by that, I mean, there was many excellent projects, but all of them aimed at graduate trainees. Now, that presupposes that you have somebody who has decided, in fact, to go to university. That presupposes two things. One is that they’ve had the opportunity both at home and at school to get the grades to go to university. And secondly, that you’re presuming that they, in fact, believe that submitting themselves to the debt that university entails will pay back over time, even though we know that in fact many times opportunity does not do so. And so we were trying to get to the heart of the problem, in fact, and get around this traditional way of approaching it. And like everything else in investment management, our approach was simply to go back in history to the way that asset management used to do it many, many years ago for the privileged, funnily enough. So if you go back to the ’70s and the ’80s, quite often people from privileged backgrounds would come straight to the city from schools, sometimes from the army. And the idea was that as they joined, they would be trained on the job. Nowadays, of course, most people who come to the city have done finance at universities, are really interested in finance, mathematics, and so on. So what we decided to do was, look, let’s use the same system that was used all these years ago to entrench privilege and actually turn it on its head and use it to break down privilege and promote diversity. And so our program is to go to high schools in the United Kingdom and in London and to try to see who’s really interested with no prerequisites and bring them on board and train them as an apprentice. And if they like the job and they find that they have an aptitude, to then sponsor them. Through a CFA program. And so that becomes an equivalent of a degree. And that way you break the barrier because you open up the opportunity for people who had not looked at finance as a way of a career to actually really come into it. We’re excited by it. It’s new, and I hope it works. But I think at the very least, it will help some people break the glass ceiling and come into the city from more deprived communities in and around London and the UK. So we’d like to go for 10 apprentices per annum, and then you have to assume that they would leave you after a while, but actually one of the best things that you can do is if they then leave you to go to other firms, so you start feeding them into the system.
Breakout Room 5: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
