Aoifinn Devitt: Series 3 is kindly supported by Eagle Point Credit Management. Eagle Point Credit Management is a specialist investment manager principally focused on income-oriented credit investments in niche and inefficient markets. Founded by Thomas Majewski in partnership with Stone Point Capital in 2012, Eagle Point currently manages over $7.8 billion in AUM. Investment strategies pursued by the firm include collateralized loan obligations, CLOs, portfolio debt securities, and other opportunities across the credit universe. Currently, Eagle Point is the largest investor in CLO equity in the world and one of the largest non-bank lenders focused on providing financing solutions to credit funds. You can learn more about Eagle Point at eaglepointcredit.com.
Sonali: You need to keep evolving. If you’re not learning, you’re stagnant. If you’re not growing, you’re stagnant. And I think having that growth mindset, having that adaptability, having that flexibility is so key, right? The investment world is shifting constantly. The landscape is shifting, the way people assess risk, the types of things clients care about, the democratization of alternatives, right? All of these things are impacting our industry in real time, and you need to be able to adapt, whether it’s in your personal life, your professional life, in your perspectives. You got to keep moving.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Sonali Patel-Wilson, who is Managing Director and Director of Alternatives Americas at Wellington Management, where she is based in the New York City area. She sits on the investment committee of the Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Foundation in Baltimore, and she’s also a trustee of EWAB, Encouraging Women Across All Borders, which helps college-age women and non-binary individuals build their confidence to enter STEM and finance fields. She previously held various positions at PIMCO focused on account management in the alternatives area and has held various investor relations and analyst roles. Welcome, Sonali. Thanks for joining me today.
Sonali: Aoifinn, thank you so much for having me. I’m delighted and humbled.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, let’s start with your background and your career journey, maybe going right back to where you grew up and what you studied.
Sonali: Sure. Even I am born and raised in New Jersey, which is where I live today. The daughter of Indian immigrants, my parents came to the US in 1970 for my father, 1977 for my mother. Their first port of entry was here in Hoboken, New Jersey, which is right down the street from where I live. So very much full circle, grew up with an elder sister and really had what I’ll say is somewhat of the prototypical upbringing of the daughter of immigrant children, extraordinarily focused on our studies. Our parents came here truly to give us a better life. And I think our goal growing up was to ensure that that sacrifice was never taken for granted. And so very, very much focused on doing well in school, putting your head down, getting your work done. And as I got older and then I grew up in what is a pretty entrepreneurial family, my father is an engineer by trade. My mother actually studied and has a master’s in English, but when she came to the US, made the decision that she didn’t want to work for anyone and so had a number of businesses over the years. Lobby stands within office buildings. Eventually they started buying real estate. So grew up in a very business-minded and entrepreneurial family to some degree. And then stability mattered. And that’s why my father was an engineer. And so when it came to my studies, I think I knew pretty early on that I didn’t want to follow in the prototypical steps of a South Asian, which was expected of you, right? You want to be a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer even. And I didn’t want to do any of those things. And so I thought to myself, you know what, business is really interesting. And so from high school onwards, I was very proactive. Call me a nerd, if you will. I was part of the Future Business Leaders of America starting at the age of 14 and loved competing and loved being part of these business competitions. And so decided I’m going to go to business school, which led me to the Stern School at NYU, where I studied finance and CPA accounting with the thought that I could maybe become a lawyer. And, and so I minored in political science to appease my parents and quickly realized that the world of finance made sense, the numbers made sense. And so went into banking right out of undergrad and, and the rest is history.
Aoifinn Devitt: I love that. I love the entrepreneurial roots. And were there any surprising turns then once you found yourself in asset management?
Sonali: I think the first most surprising turn was, was probably I realized I went into banking, thought I was going to be this investment banker, went to Goldman, right? The apex of what young college-age kids who want to do this went to and got there and was like, oh my gosh, I don’t think I want to do this. I thought I wanted to do this, but I don’t. And so that wasn’t necessarily a surprising turn, but certainly one where you work and work and work to a moment and you get there and you realize, well, maybe this isn’t for me, which is what caused my pivot. And happy to talk through that as we go through this. But the most surprising turn in my life, honestly, Aoifinn, and I know we’ve talked about this before, was not necessarily from a professional standpoint. It was in my personal life. At the time that I had started at Goldman, actually my first month on the job, I met my husband, Sean Wilson, which is where the Wilson comes from. In a bar in New York City. So, so what I’ll say is the old-fashioned way relative to, I think, the way people date and meet today. And I never in a million years, growing up with such strong cultural ties, growing up in the family that I grew up with, I would have never told you in a million years that I was going to marry someone that was outside of my race, somebody who was more of a creative than maybe a business person or an entrepreneur or doctor or something along those lines.. And so I think that journey for me has probably been the biggest deviation. I couldn’t be happier with the life that we’ve built, but certainly something my 20-year-old self would have never conceived of in a million years.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s funny because this is, I’m sure, not an atypical story in our world, our professional world, but it is a great example of pushing outside your comfort zone and of the wonderful success that can come when you do that. And I’d love to know whether doing that in your personal life, going maybe against the norm or against expectation, whether that emboldened you then in your career, because you’ve made some interesting moves. You’ve moved firm, you’ve made huge inroads into the world of alternatives. You’re an expert networker and client service person. I’ve seen that up front. So do you think that you are emboldened in other ways in your career now? Have you been ambitious and set an agenda?
Sonali: Well, I appreciate you saying it, Aoifinn. I think for me, interesting that you ask it that way. I think marrying someone like Sean, growing up, by the way, in the household, I did as well. Like, forget my story with, with my partner, which is sort of a step out on the spectrum. But even in looking at my parents’ story, my father, as I said, was a— is an engineer by trade. He is of a Jain background. Jainism is, is his religion, his background. My mother is, is a Hindu. And so their marriage was very much against the norm in 1977 when they were married. You didn’t marry outside of your caste. It was something— my mother is a Brahmin, not just a Hindu, is a Brahmin. So sort of top of the food chain, I guess, is what you would call it in Hinduism. Her move and the way in which she lived her life when she came to the US, I think every step of the way paved the path for me. My mom’s been breaking glass ceilings and pushing the boundaries of norms for so long that I got to grow up with that. I was also the second child. My older sister sort of took the brunt of all of the tradition and became the doctor and sort of followed all the things. So I always got to march by my own drumbeat to some degree. But what marrying Sean certainly did in pushing the boundaries is it’s given me a completely different perspective in terms of being able to see things from a very different lens from my own, culturally, socially, from a religious perspective, right? We’re different in so many ways. Yet at the same time, what it’s allowed me to do is also see where people can be very similar. We couldn’t come from two more different places. He grew up in Kentucky, the son of two teachers in a very kind of Christian upbringing, if you will. I grew up as the daughter of immigrants. And what I think it’s emboldened me to do is, as you’ve put it, right, and maybe part of where I can attribute some of my success professionally, though a lot of it has been luck and timing and a lot of things, is being able to see things from multiple perspectives and trying to find solutions for whether it’s my clients, internally within an organization, that bridge different perspectives, different gaps. And I’ve had the benefit of seeing that from the time that I was really young and finding a path, right? When you, when you hit a wall, you, you find a new path. And I’ve gotten to see that firsthand in my own life experience. And I think it’s allowed me to translate a lot of that into the work environment.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s a wonderful perspective, and certainly it enables us to see connections, embrace different points of view, I’d love to know exactly what is it— can you describe what you do at Wellington now in your role and how it relates to alternatives, what you’re hearing from clients in terms of their willingness to push new boundaries, and just how the client service and portfolio side works there?
Sonali: Sure. So I had the privilege of joining Wellington just about a year ago in this role as an Alternatives Director, and I get to wear a few hats within the organization. First and foremost, as you’ve come to know me over the years, I am in a, a more client-facing role, so partner very closely with my colleagues on bringing the firm’s alternative solutions, whether that’s in the hedge fund business or in, in private markets to bear and partnering with our clients in that capacity. And then the second hat that I wear and the one that really drew me to the job and what I’m most excited about is the opportunity to push the firm’s goals and objectives and, and alternatives into the world of private credit. We have a very large fixed income business within the organization. And as we— and one of the things you asked about was how have clients’ needs changed over time, right? Clients, I think, increasingly in alternatives are looking for partners that can really provide end-to-end solutions from public markets all the way out to private markets. And it’s something we’ve done successfully on the equity side of our business. And looking to do that within the credit side of the business. So actually being part of a leadership team or within the organization that’s thinking about how we can bring private credit solutions to our clients in a way that is authentic to the firm and aligns with the firm’s core values and competencies.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I should say that you’re not going to admit this about yourself, but in terms of your ability to connect with clients, it is without compare because I, I’ve really enjoyed being at networking events with you and I, I let you show me the way. So thank you Being such a complete natural in our industry like that. Moving on to your role in finance and how you’ve seen finance change. Obviously you’ve been experienced with maybe being in an underrepresented group right from the time you went to elementary school. How has that kind of followed you, I suppose, through your life and career, and how does it feel in finance right now in terms of the level of inclusion you see?
Sonali: It’s changed a lot in the time, certainly in in the, the last 15 or, or 20 years. I will say maybe one of the benefits that I’ve had is as someone that was often the minority in the room, whether I was the only female in the room, the only person of color in a room, you learn to adapt and you learn to, for better or for worse, right, kind of be a chameleon and adapt to the environment that you’re in. Because you do, if you’re at a board meeting in Louisiana or Oklahoma, it’s maybe different. Than when you’re sitting in New York City and you’re chatting with clients and colleagues there, right? And so I think my upbringing and my background and sort of the experiences I’ve had to this point have really allowed me, I hope, to take in lots of different perspectives and adapt to the environment that I’m in. And that’s been a net benefit certainly for my professional life. Where the industry I think has changed the most is a lot of the topics that we’re talking about, your podcast today, right, 50 Faces, these were not things that came up back then, right? I think diversity was probably almost purely through a gender lens back then, right? It was a female or male. And today diversity means so much more, which I think is incredible. And it’s not just cultural diversity, racial diversity, gender diversity. It’s also cognitive diversity. And these are conversations that are really at the forefront versus being something that was either not talked about at all when I entered the industry or was not something that was really given a second thought. And I think investors are certainly increasingly voting with their own feet and making it a priority and pushing the envelope, which is forcing the industry to sort of move along. I have the privilege of working at a trillion-dollar asset manager that is run by a woman in Jean Hines. And that’s pretty amazing because what I’ve seen firsthand within Wellington is them leading from the front on a lot of these issues. And having someone at the top who I think broke her own glass ceiling and has an amazing story in terms of how she got to CEO of the organization has paved a path for so many. And the number of women in leadership positions, the number of minorities in different positions is something that really resonated with me in my journey to come to Wellington. As an organization within our industry, and our industry has a long way to go, let’s be really clear, but as an organization within the industry that understands the importance of having multiple lenses of diversity, and doing so in a way that feels very authentic and genuine to it.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s talk about EWOP because that is also core to the mission of that. It seems to be to introduce more women, more non-binary individuals to STEM and finance in general. Can you talk about the work that that organization does?
Sonali: Yes, it’s something I am so excited about and so proud of in terms of having the opportunity to be involved. So EWOP was started at the Stevens Institute here in Hoboken, New Jersey. There was a young woman named Caitlin Gilly who was studying in the STEM field, was one of the first individuals in her family to go to college, and realized that in these very male-dominated environments, helping young women, non-binary individuals find the confidence to walk into a very male-dominated organization or, or room and hold their own was really important. And so the team at EWOP has gone on to build a curriculum for these young college-aged women and non-binary individuals to follow. And instead of teaching tactical discounted cash flow models for those who want to study finance, the goal of the programs is to really help them find their voice and be able— again, that key point of being able to adapt being able to adapt to any environment such that you can take on any job with confidence and take it on head-on. And we’re now, I believe, in 10 schools globally. We’ve helped dozens of women be able to find that. And the greatest part about the program is the women who’ve gone through and then move on into their own professional careers have continued to come back and help the next generation of women. And I think that is something that’s so important as we think about the journey of women, whether it’s in this industry or in STEM more broadly, to create that flywheel, right, where we continue to give back, we continue to bring up the next generation. The only way that you get parity over the longer term, right, and the data sort of bears this out, is we need to invest in the younger generations. We need to invest in that future.. And being a part of EWAB has allowed me to give back, I hope, in a much broader way and an impactful way over time.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I’d love to learn a little bit about that process because you mentioned the confidence gap and building confidence and teaching them to feel comfortable perhaps in a setting. How long did that typically take? Because I’m sure it’s not something that is just a kind of a summer program can do. How long would you work with these candidates and how have you found that they respond?
Sonali: I think that the response rate has been great, right? And, and a lot of the, the measurement after the fact is around how they feel about right? Themselves, So it’s their own perception of their confidence. There aren’t necessarily objective, so to speak, measures. That being said, it is a program that goes throughout the school year, right? And I think this is where, where it’s differentiated. So typically targeting sophomores through a 1-year program, and then there is coursework along the way. That addresses different topics. And something we’re actually talking about right now, and I’ve been working with a few of the members on, is actually doing more work with these individuals on tackling tougher conversations, tougher situations, right, within the workplace. How do you find your voice to respectfully dissent on a topic? How do you maybe tackle conflict with an individual that might be more aggressive or more abrasive than what you’re used to? How do you navigate some of that complexity, right, when you’re in an internship? How do you think about different careers that are available to young women that are studying in a lot of these fields? And so the curriculum is really meant to address and have modules to be able to to take on some of these topics. It is a work in progress. We’re always looking for more mentors and individuals that are willing to teach. But I think so much of what EWOB is trying to do— and one of the individuals on the board had asked me this recently— how do you think about measuring confidence? How do women, like those that you’ve met that are really confident, what traits do they embody or what do they do? And as I reflected myself and I think about women like yourself, Aoifinn, who are blazing these amazing trails, and they do it with such confidence and grace and dignity. How do they do it? And importantly, how do you teach that? Right. And I don’t think it’s something that’s easily taught, but sort of how do you give people the tools to do that? What does it look like? How can we empower young women to be comfortable being uncomfortable and maybe not become the wallflower when they’re put in an uncomfortable situation?, but really be able to put their shoulders back and, and take something head on. So that’s a lot of what EWAB is trying to do in its mission. And I think we’ve had a few dozen women go through this program and, and happy to say that the vast majority, many of these women are first generation going to college, often are women of color. And so to your earlier point, when you’re one of the few in a room and it’s been that way your entire life, How can a program like EWOB, and I think it’s done this successfully, effectively allow these women to find power in being the minority, however you’d like to define that, versus being taken down by it?
Aoifinn Devitt: Hear, hear. I think also when you hear how women, I think how they bridge that confidence gap, my advice to them is always practice. Say yes to that opportunity. Do the speaking engagements, make that presentation, and I think just do it over.
Sonali: And over and over again.
Aoifinn Devitt: And unfortunately, it isn’t something that can often be fixed, or at least addressed necessarily in a program. It can— it really has to happen in practice.
Sonali: And I think a lot of it is like role-playing some of that, right? Practicing, saying it. To your point, that repetition over time, I think, builds that muscle memory, and you have to be put in a lot of different situations And then eventually, right, you kind of, you see the pattern and you know how to respond, but you can’t do that without having at-bats. And so what we hope the EWOP program does is give some of those at-bats in a more controlled environment so that when they’re actually in the environment in real life, they can tackle it, right? It’s not completely foreign to you.
Aoifinn Devitt: That sounds like an amazing program. One of the other things that can be taught is dealing with setbacks. And this is my segue to the reflection section. And I want to ask you, Your career looks like an amazing trajectory. Were there any setbacks, challenges in there, anywhere you learned.
Sonali: I.
Aoifinn Devitt: Lessons?
Sonali: Feel like I learn lessons every day. If I’m not learning, I don’t feel like I’ve had a productive day, if you will. But I feel like there’s been so many micro setbacks. I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve had phenomenal mentors. I’ve had great opportunities that were afforded to me, and a big part of why I’m doing EWOP is because I think I was very privileged, all else equal, right? I had parents that did everything, sacrificed everything so that we could go to the best schools or the best programs and not have to worry about it. Not everyone has that opportunity. So that has been very important in terms of how I think about giving back. In terms of my own personal setbacks in my career, I will recount a very early story, and you’ve been extraordinarily gracious about my skill set and then how that’s evolved over time. But early on when I got into this business, I had made a decision to change roles, and it really offended the individual that I was working for. And I was quite young at the time, and so I, I didn’t really know how to approach it, right? But I’d always just had the assumption that, hey, if somebody leaves a role to move on to something that might be better for them, then one should be happy, right? And should wish them well. It’s not a personal thing, right? It’s what’s in the best interest of the individual. And when I had shared with this person that I was making a change, the response function was not what I expected. I ended up having someone who lashed out and said to me, you know what? You’ve always been an honest worker, I’ll give you that, but you’re never going to make it in this industry. I just don’t think you have the talent or the ability. And this is young 20-something me, and I was absolutely crushed. This was somebody I’d looked up to, someone I admire and had viewed until that point as somewhat of a mentor. And I’m sure this person doesn’t even remember the story. It’s been so many years. But that leveled me and it really shook my confidence and my ability to think about whether or not I could be successful in this role, right? In this client relationship-oriented role. And it stayed with me. It stayed with me until now. This is many, many years later. What it gave me, and it wasn’t necessarily a setback, but what it gave me was my first dose of reality, if you will. In the working world, and it gave me resilience. It’s like, you know, I’m going to prove you wrong. I know I can do this. I know I’m better than that. And I remember the role after, I put my head down and I busted my behind because I was going to prove that individual wrong. And it drove me in, in some way. I’m not sure what that says about me, but it certainly, in terms of setbacks or challenges, I had always thought if you put your head down, you worked hard, you had a good work product, why would someone cut you down? And I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to channel that into a positive way, and I did successfully, and, and I was able to knock it out of the park in the, in the next role. But it definitely shook my confidence, and I had to find a way to build that back. The other area that I’ll highlight, not in terms of a setback again, but just Something that I’ve had to grapple with in my career, and I think many women have to grapple with in their careers, is this Goldilocks notion. I think some folks will guise it under the quote of executive presence in performance reviews and things like that. And I never knew what that meant. And if you know what that means, please let me know. But oftentimes it, it felt like it was code for kind of Goldilocks, right? It’s too little of this, it’s too much of that and it’s not just right. And you’re trying to be just perfect, right? And as a female, as someone who is a person of color, as also a woman in kind of relationship management that doesn’t necessarily always look maybe physically sometimes the, the way that everyone in rooms around me looked, I always felt like I was trying to be this Goldilocks and get it just right. And so it was tweak what you wear, do your hair differently, Maybe you should put on more makeup is something I had been told at some point in my career. And I’ve really had to, particularly in the last 5 to 7 years, I’ll say, I’ve grappled with that. What are the expectations of me from like a societal perspective versus who am I and being comfortable in my own skin and in my own skillset, right? Not having this complex of trying to be something I’m not or trying to fit some mold just because that was what somebody’s impression of what I should or shouldn’t be was. And so in that process, while it certainly hasn’t been a setback, I think both of those situations have forced me to find my own inner strength and authenticity for what I think makes sense for myself and what ultimately is right by my clients and the people that I have to work with. So much of that feedback over the years gave that to me, right? I’ve had this imposter syndrome of always trying to be something. And in the very recent past, and particularly in this new role, I’m just a lot more comfortable being who I am. And that for me is a win.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a win for all of us. It’s so interesting though what you’re saying. First of all, a couple of points, reflections on that. What a mean-spirited individual. The only time I was told that was when I was working as a cocktail waitress where I clearly did not have the executive function to wait tables and I I was told I had no role and it was actually crushing. And I’ve never forgotten those words, even though that wasn’t my career hope and aspire, it definitely makes a difference. And it’s so interesting what you say about how much feedback can feed imposter syndrome because I’ve talked about imposter syndrome quite a lot on this podcast, maybe a little bit in the context of it almost being innate and us being born with it. But actually we forget that it can grow and be, as I said, fed and nurtured by the wrong kind of feedback, non-constructive feedback. Hopefully by the same token, we can also destroy it by not feeding it and actually by, by lifting up that authentic voice that you mentioned. So really beautiful reflections there. Well, let’s move from this negative influence individual who ultimately had a positive effect and influence on you into any other individuals who had a positive influence on you throughout your career, maybe as mentors, as sponsors, otherwise.
Sonali: Yeah, look at it. And I think it should come as no surprise. I’ve talked about them a few times on this podcast thus far. Undoubtedly, the two individuals that have influenced my life the most are my parents. And I 100% would not be where I am today without them, without their support, without their teachings, without their love. And I feel very fortunate in that way. I recognize not everyone can say that, and I can. I came upon this quote yesterday and it really resonated with me. And it said, behind every strong person there’s a story that gave them no choice. And a lot of the individuals that have influenced me in my life, my parents being amongst the first of them, right? It’s exactly that. They have so much resilience, they have so much grit. And for my parents who are immigrants in a new country with no support system, with no family, to come here and build a life for themselves, build a life for their family, give their children a better life than they could have ever conceived of in terms of where they came from. That was not easy. And my parents faced so much adversity when they came here in terms of getting their life up and running, scrimping and scraping to be able to save for their children. And then most importantly, right, my father and my mother, the first place where we lived when I was born, they, as I had shared, started to buy real estate in the early days, and we lived in a building that they had owned, and they were the new landlords. And at that time, the part of Jersey that we lived in had a lot of Irish immigrants and, and all different immigrant communities, but more sort of, I’ll say, European immigrant communities versus someone like us who— we were from India. And it was the point at which, like, folks would be banging on my parents’ pipes and telling them to go home to their own country and taking extreme measures to try to get them out of this building where they had recently become landlords. And that really leaves an impression. And I give you that story not as a, oh gosh, woe is us, not at all. It’s a story of resilience. It’s a story of grit. And at every turn, no matter the adversity, no matter what they faced, my parents always had smiles on their faces. They were so grateful for being in a country that was able to provide them and their family with so much opportunity. And so that’s what I remember. And that for me is something I’ve always carried. On one hand, it’s, listen, you always pick yourself back up and tomorrow will be a better day, right? Just forge ahead. The other thing that it probably gave me was a little bit of a complex of, listen, there are a lot of people who sacrificed for you to get to where you are. Don’t screw it up. And so maybe that makes me a little bit more risk-averse in my own decisions. From a professional perspective, I’ve had a number of incredible individuals that I get to count amongst my sponsors and my mentors. Even Jennifer Strickland obviously is a core one. She helped me at Blue Mountain. She was the individual that brought me to PIMCO and I attribute so much of my career and lessons learned in how to do this business correctly to her. She’s been an incredible mentor, an incredible sponsor. We talked a little bit about the Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Foundation Investment Advisory Committee work that I get to do. John Hook, who is the former CIO, has been a core mentor for me in the industry and someone that had a phenomenal career and someone I was able to learn from. And there’s so many more. There are individuals who really have taken me under their wing over the years and taught me. I think in this business, which is very much an apprenticeship-oriented business, I got to learn from some of the best in the industry at a very young age. And that’s critical. We wouldn’t be where we are as professionals without people like Jen and John.
Aoifinn Devitt: Jennifer is amazing. I completely agree with you there. A true leader in our industry and just absolutely so much experience. My last question is around any advice that some of these amazing mentors left with you, or anything from your faith or from your life so far. Any words of wisdom, any creed or motto?
Sonali: We used to have this running joke when I was at PIMCO, a colleague of mine and I, and we used to put this little Post-it on our computer screen, and it’s going to sound a little bit intense, but I think the motto ultimately prevails. And the words were adapt or die. And I think it speaks so much to the world we live in and the industry that we’re in, right? Which is you need to keep evolving. If you’re not learning, you’re stagnant. If you’re not growing, you’re stagnant. And I think having that growth mindset, having that adaptability, having that flexibility is so key, right? The investment world is shifting constantly. The landscape is shifting, the way people assess risk, the types of things clients care about, the democratization of alternatives, right? All of these things are impacting our industry in real time. And you need to be able to adapt, whether it’s in your personal life, your professional life, in your perspectives. You gotta keep moving. And I think that served me exceptionally well. And something I constantly come back to when I find that I’m stuck. For my younger self, I think you nailed it earlier, right? Which is take the risk, say yes. I think certainly as women, sometimes we tend to overthink things. I certainly do. Raise your hand, take the leap. You don’t have to be 99.9% sure about something before you say yes or no for that matter, right? Kind of use that intuition and take the risk. I wish I had done more of that. And then the last piece of advice I would give, and I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say this on the, on the podcast, but for my younger female self, I wish I had told my 20-year-old self, 20-something-year-old self, to freeze my eggs.
Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely. You never know the twists and turns life will take. Well, thank you so much, Sonali. You’ve always been such a warm and authentic voice in the industry and such a tremendous cheerleader up and down for people at the beginning, middle, and end of their careers. And that is felt. And so appreciated. And thank you for coming here to share your insights, a little bit about your story, how you found your voice, and all of the richness that is in your life today with us.
Sonali: Aoifinn, thank you so much for doing this, for bringing awareness to the industry and to all of these different voices. Thank you. This has been so fun.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors on their personal journeys, Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever.
Sonali: You get your podcasts.
Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: Series 3 is kindly supported by Eagle Point Credit Management. Eagle Point Credit Management is a specialist investment manager principally focused on income-oriented credit investments in niche and inefficient markets. Founded by Thomas Majewski in partnership with Stone Point Capital in 2012, Eagle Point currently manages over $7.8 billion in AUM. Investment strategies pursued by the firm include collateralized loan obligations, CLOs, portfolio debt securities, and other opportunities across the credit universe. Currently, Eagle Point is the largest investor in CLO equity in the world and one of the largest non-bank lenders focused on providing financing solutions to credit funds. You can learn more about Eagle Point at eaglepointcredit.com.
Sonali: You need to keep evolving. If you’re not learning, you’re stagnant. If you’re not growing, you’re stagnant. And I think having that growth mindset, having that adaptability, having that flexibility is so key, right? The investment world is shifting constantly. The landscape is shifting, the way people assess risk, the types of things clients care about, the democratization of alternatives, right? All of these things are impacting our industry in real time, and you need to be able to adapt, whether it’s in your personal life, your professional life, in your perspectives. You got to keep moving.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Sonali Patel-Wilson, who is Managing Director and Director of Alternatives Americas at Wellington Management, where she is based in the New York City area. She sits on the investment committee of the Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Foundation in Baltimore, and she’s also a trustee of EWAB, Encouraging Women Across All Borders, which helps college-age women and non-binary individuals build their confidence to enter STEM and finance fields. She previously held various positions at PIMCO focused on account management in the alternatives area and has held various investor relations and analyst roles. Welcome, Sonali. Thanks for joining me today.
Sonali: Aoifinn, thank you so much for having me. I’m delighted and humbled.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, let’s start with your background and your career journey, maybe going right back to where you grew up and what you studied.
Sonali: Sure. Even I am born and raised in New Jersey, which is where I live today. The daughter of Indian immigrants, my parents came to the US in 1970 for my father, 1977 for my mother. Their first port of entry was here in Hoboken, New Jersey, which is right down the street from where I live. So very much full circle, grew up with an elder sister and really had what I’ll say is somewhat of the prototypical upbringing of the daughter of immigrant children, extraordinarily focused on our studies. Our parents came here truly to give us a better life. And I think our goal growing up was to ensure that that sacrifice was never taken for granted. And so very, very much focused on doing well in school, putting your head down, getting your work done. And as I got older and then I grew up in what is a pretty entrepreneurial family, my father is an engineer by trade. My mother actually studied and has a master’s in English, but when she came to the US, made the decision that she didn’t want to work for anyone and so had a number of businesses over the years. Lobby stands within office buildings. Eventually they started buying real estate. So grew up in a very business-minded and entrepreneurial family to some degree. And then stability mattered. And that’s why my father was an engineer. And so when it came to my studies, I think I knew pretty early on that I didn’t want to follow in the prototypical steps of a South Asian, which was expected of you, right? You want to be a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer even. And I didn’t want to do any of those things. And so I thought to myself, you know what, business is really interesting. And so from high school onwards, I was very proactive. Call me a nerd, if you will. I was part of the Future Business Leaders of America starting at the age of 14 and loved competing and loved being part of these business competitions. And so decided I’m going to go to business school, which led me to the Stern School at NYU, where I studied finance and CPA accounting with the thought that I could maybe become a lawyer. And, and so I minored in political science to appease my parents and quickly realized that the world of finance made sense, the numbers made sense. And so went into banking right out of undergrad and, and the rest is history.
Aoifinn Devitt: I love that. I love the entrepreneurial roots. And were there any surprising turns then once you found yourself in asset management?
Sonali: I think the first most surprising turn was, was probably I realized I went into banking, thought I was going to be this investment banker, went to Goldman, right? The apex of what young college-age kids who want to do this went to and got there and was like, oh my gosh, I don’t think I want to do this. I thought I wanted to do this, but I don’t. And so that wasn’t necessarily a surprising turn, but certainly one where you work and work and work to a moment and you get there and you realize, well, maybe this isn’t for me, which is what caused my pivot. And happy to talk through that as we go through this. But the most surprising turn in my life, honestly, Aoifinn, and I know we’ve talked about this before, was not necessarily from a professional standpoint. It was in my personal life. At the time that I had started at Goldman, actually my first month on the job, I met my husband, Sean Wilson, which is where the Wilson comes from. In a bar in New York City. So, so what I’ll say is the old-fashioned way relative to, I think, the way people date and meet today. And I never in a million years, growing up with such strong cultural ties, growing up in the family that I grew up with, I would have never told you in a million years that I was going to marry someone that was outside of my race, somebody who was more of a creative than maybe a business person or an entrepreneur or doctor or something along those lines.. And so I think that journey for me has probably been the biggest deviation. I couldn’t be happier with the life that we’ve built, but certainly something my 20-year-old self would have never conceived of in a million years.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s funny because this is, I’m sure, not an atypical story in our world, our professional world, but it is a great example of pushing outside your comfort zone and of the wonderful success that can come when you do that. And I’d love to know whether doing that in your personal life, going maybe against the norm or against expectation, whether that emboldened you then in your career, because you’ve made some interesting moves. You’ve moved firm, you’ve made huge inroads into the world of alternatives. You’re an expert networker and client service person. I’ve seen that up front. So do you think that you are emboldened in other ways in your career now? Have you been ambitious and set an agenda?
Sonali: Well, I appreciate you saying it, Aoifinn. I think for me, interesting that you ask it that way. I think marrying someone like Sean, growing up, by the way, in the household, I did as well. Like, forget my story with, with my partner, which is sort of a step out on the spectrum. But even in looking at my parents’ story, my father, as I said, was a— is an engineer by trade. He is of a Jain background. Jainism is, is his religion, his background. My mother is, is a Hindu. And so their marriage was very much against the norm in 1977 when they were married. You didn’t marry outside of your caste. It was something— my mother is a Brahmin, not just a Hindu, is a Brahmin. So sort of top of the food chain, I guess, is what you would call it in Hinduism. Her move and the way in which she lived her life when she came to the US, I think every step of the way paved the path for me. My mom’s been breaking glass ceilings and pushing the boundaries of norms for so long that I got to grow up with that. I was also the second child. My older sister sort of took the brunt of all of the tradition and became the doctor and sort of followed all the things. So I always got to march by my own drumbeat to some degree. But what marrying Sean certainly did in pushing the boundaries is it’s given me a completely different perspective in terms of being able to see things from a very different lens from my own, culturally, socially, from a religious perspective, right? We’re different in so many ways. Yet at the same time, what it’s allowed me to do is also see where people can be very similar. We couldn’t come from two more different places. He grew up in Kentucky, the son of two teachers in a very kind of Christian upbringing, if you will. I grew up as the daughter of immigrants. And what I think it’s emboldened me to do is, as you’ve put it, right, and maybe part of where I can attribute some of my success professionally, though a lot of it has been luck and timing and a lot of things, is being able to see things from multiple perspectives and trying to find solutions for whether it’s my clients, internally within an organization, that bridge different perspectives, different gaps. And I’ve had the benefit of seeing that from the time that I was really young and finding a path, right? When you, when you hit a wall, you, you find a new path. And I’ve gotten to see that firsthand in my own life experience. And I think it’s allowed me to translate a lot of that into the work environment.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s a wonderful perspective, and certainly it enables us to see connections, embrace different points of view, I’d love to know exactly what is it— can you describe what you do at Wellington now in your role and how it relates to alternatives, what you’re hearing from clients in terms of their willingness to push new boundaries, and just how the client service and portfolio side works there?
Sonali: Sure. So I had the privilege of joining Wellington just about a year ago in this role as an Alternatives Director, and I get to wear a few hats within the organization. First and foremost, as you’ve come to know me over the years, I am in a, a more client-facing role, so partner very closely with my colleagues on bringing the firm’s alternative solutions, whether that’s in the hedge fund business or in, in private markets to bear and partnering with our clients in that capacity. And then the second hat that I wear and the one that really drew me to the job and what I’m most excited about is the opportunity to push the firm’s goals and objectives and, and alternatives into the world of private credit. We have a very large fixed income business within the organization. And as we— and one of the things you asked about was how have clients’ needs changed over time, right? Clients, I think, increasingly in alternatives are looking for partners that can really provide end-to-end solutions from public markets all the way out to private markets. And it’s something we’ve done successfully on the equity side of our business. And looking to do that within the credit side of the business. So actually being part of a leadership team or within the organization that’s thinking about how we can bring private credit solutions to our clients in a way that is authentic to the firm and aligns with the firm’s core values and competencies.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I should say that you’re not going to admit this about yourself, but in terms of your ability to connect with clients, it is without compare because I, I’ve really enjoyed being at networking events with you and I, I let you show me the way. So thank you Being such a complete natural in our industry like that. Moving on to your role in finance and how you’ve seen finance change. Obviously you’ve been experienced with maybe being in an underrepresented group right from the time you went to elementary school. How has that kind of followed you, I suppose, through your life and career, and how does it feel in finance right now in terms of the level of inclusion you see?
Sonali: It’s changed a lot in the time, certainly in in the, the last 15 or, or 20 years. I will say maybe one of the benefits that I’ve had is as someone that was often the minority in the room, whether I was the only female in the room, the only person of color in a room, you learn to adapt and you learn to, for better or for worse, right, kind of be a chameleon and adapt to the environment that you’re in. Because you do, if you’re at a board meeting in Louisiana or Oklahoma, it’s maybe different. Than when you’re sitting in New York City and you’re chatting with clients and colleagues there, right? And so I think my upbringing and my background and sort of the experiences I’ve had to this point have really allowed me, I hope, to take in lots of different perspectives and adapt to the environment that I’m in. And that’s been a net benefit certainly for my professional life. Where the industry I think has changed the most is a lot of the topics that we’re talking about, your podcast today, right, 50 Faces, these were not things that came up back then, right? I think diversity was probably almost purely through a gender lens back then, right? It was a female or male. And today diversity means so much more, which I think is incredible. And it’s not just cultural diversity, racial diversity, gender diversity. It’s also cognitive diversity. And these are conversations that are really at the forefront versus being something that was either not talked about at all when I entered the industry or was not something that was really given a second thought. And I think investors are certainly increasingly voting with their own feet and making it a priority and pushing the envelope, which is forcing the industry to sort of move along. I have the privilege of working at a trillion-dollar asset manager that is run by a woman in Jean Hines. And that’s pretty amazing because what I’ve seen firsthand within Wellington is them leading from the front on a lot of these issues. And having someone at the top who I think broke her own glass ceiling and has an amazing story in terms of how she got to CEO of the organization has paved a path for so many. And the number of women in leadership positions, the number of minorities in different positions is something that really resonated with me in my journey to come to Wellington. As an organization within our industry, and our industry has a long way to go, let’s be really clear, but as an organization within the industry that understands the importance of having multiple lenses of diversity, and doing so in a way that feels very authentic and genuine to it.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s talk about EWOP because that is also core to the mission of that. It seems to be to introduce more women, more non-binary individuals to STEM and finance in general. Can you talk about the work that that organization does?
Sonali: Yes, it’s something I am so excited about and so proud of in terms of having the opportunity to be involved. So EWOP was started at the Stevens Institute here in Hoboken, New Jersey. There was a young woman named Caitlin Gilly who was studying in the STEM field, was one of the first individuals in her family to go to college, and realized that in these very male-dominated environments, helping young women, non-binary individuals find the confidence to walk into a very male-dominated organization or, or room and hold their own was really important. And so the team at EWOP has gone on to build a curriculum for these young college-aged women and non-binary individuals to follow. And instead of teaching tactical discounted cash flow models for those who want to study finance, the goal of the programs is to really help them find their voice and be able— again, that key point of being able to adapt being able to adapt to any environment such that you can take on any job with confidence and take it on head-on. And we’re now, I believe, in 10 schools globally. We’ve helped dozens of women be able to find that. And the greatest part about the program is the women who’ve gone through and then move on into their own professional careers have continued to come back and help the next generation of women. And I think that is something that’s so important as we think about the journey of women, whether it’s in this industry or in STEM more broadly, to create that flywheel, right, where we continue to give back, we continue to bring up the next generation. The only way that you get parity over the longer term, right, and the data sort of bears this out, is we need to invest in the younger generations. We need to invest in that future.. And being a part of EWAB has allowed me to give back, I hope, in a much broader way and an impactful way over time.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I’d love to learn a little bit about that process because you mentioned the confidence gap and building confidence and teaching them to feel comfortable perhaps in a setting. How long did that typically take? Because I’m sure it’s not something that is just a kind of a summer program can do. How long would you work with these candidates and how have you found that they respond?
Sonali: I think that the response rate has been great, right? And, and a lot of the, the measurement after the fact is around how they feel about right? Themselves, So it’s their own perception of their confidence. There aren’t necessarily objective, so to speak, measures. That being said, it is a program that goes throughout the school year, right? And I think this is where, where it’s differentiated. So typically targeting sophomores through a 1-year program, and then there is coursework along the way. That addresses different topics. And something we’re actually talking about right now, and I’ve been working with a few of the members on, is actually doing more work with these individuals on tackling tougher conversations, tougher situations, right, within the workplace. How do you find your voice to respectfully dissent on a topic? How do you maybe tackle conflict with an individual that might be more aggressive or more abrasive than what you’re used to? How do you navigate some of that complexity, right, when you’re in an internship? How do you think about different careers that are available to young women that are studying in a lot of these fields? And so the curriculum is really meant to address and have modules to be able to to take on some of these topics. It is a work in progress. We’re always looking for more mentors and individuals that are willing to teach. But I think so much of what EWOB is trying to do— and one of the individuals on the board had asked me this recently— how do you think about measuring confidence? How do women, like those that you’ve met that are really confident, what traits do they embody or what do they do? And as I reflected myself and I think about women like yourself, Aoifinn, who are blazing these amazing trails, and they do it with such confidence and grace and dignity. How do they do it? And importantly, how do you teach that? Right. And I don’t think it’s something that’s easily taught, but sort of how do you give people the tools to do that? What does it look like? How can we empower young women to be comfortable being uncomfortable and maybe not become the wallflower when they’re put in an uncomfortable situation?, but really be able to put their shoulders back and, and take something head on. So that’s a lot of what EWAB is trying to do in its mission. And I think we’ve had a few dozen women go through this program and, and happy to say that the vast majority, many of these women are first generation going to college, often are women of color. And so to your earlier point, when you’re one of the few in a room and it’s been that way your entire life, How can a program like EWOB, and I think it’s done this successfully, effectively allow these women to find power in being the minority, however you’d like to define that, versus being taken down by it?
Aoifinn Devitt: Hear, hear. I think also when you hear how women, I think how they bridge that confidence gap, my advice to them is always practice. Say yes to that opportunity. Do the speaking engagements, make that presentation, and I think just do it over.
Sonali: And over and over again.
Aoifinn Devitt: And unfortunately, it isn’t something that can often be fixed, or at least addressed necessarily in a program. It can— it really has to happen in practice.
Sonali: And I think a lot of it is like role-playing some of that, right? Practicing, saying it. To your point, that repetition over time, I think, builds that muscle memory, and you have to be put in a lot of different situations And then eventually, right, you kind of, you see the pattern and you know how to respond, but you can’t do that without having at-bats. And so what we hope the EWOP program does is give some of those at-bats in a more controlled environment so that when they’re actually in the environment in real life, they can tackle it, right? It’s not completely foreign to you.
Aoifinn Devitt: That sounds like an amazing program. One of the other things that can be taught is dealing with setbacks. And this is my segue to the reflection section. And I want to ask you, Your career looks like an amazing trajectory. Were there any setbacks, challenges in there, anywhere you learned.
Sonali: I.
Aoifinn Devitt: Lessons?
Sonali: Feel like I learn lessons every day. If I’m not learning, I don’t feel like I’ve had a productive day, if you will. But I feel like there’s been so many micro setbacks. I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve had phenomenal mentors. I’ve had great opportunities that were afforded to me, and a big part of why I’m doing EWOP is because I think I was very privileged, all else equal, right? I had parents that did everything, sacrificed everything so that we could go to the best schools or the best programs and not have to worry about it. Not everyone has that opportunity. So that has been very important in terms of how I think about giving back. In terms of my own personal setbacks in my career, I will recount a very early story, and you’ve been extraordinarily gracious about my skill set and then how that’s evolved over time. But early on when I got into this business, I had made a decision to change roles, and it really offended the individual that I was working for. And I was quite young at the time, and so I, I didn’t really know how to approach it, right? But I’d always just had the assumption that, hey, if somebody leaves a role to move on to something that might be better for them, then one should be happy, right? And should wish them well. It’s not a personal thing, right? It’s what’s in the best interest of the individual. And when I had shared with this person that I was making a change, the response function was not what I expected. I ended up having someone who lashed out and said to me, you know what? You’ve always been an honest worker, I’ll give you that, but you’re never going to make it in this industry. I just don’t think you have the talent or the ability. And this is young 20-something me, and I was absolutely crushed. This was somebody I’d looked up to, someone I admire and had viewed until that point as somewhat of a mentor. And I’m sure this person doesn’t even remember the story. It’s been so many years. But that leveled me and it really shook my confidence and my ability to think about whether or not I could be successful in this role, right? In this client relationship-oriented role. And it stayed with me. It stayed with me until now. This is many, many years later. What it gave me, and it wasn’t necessarily a setback, but what it gave me was my first dose of reality, if you will. In the working world, and it gave me resilience. It’s like, you know, I’m going to prove you wrong. I know I can do this. I know I’m better than that. And I remember the role after, I put my head down and I busted my behind because I was going to prove that individual wrong. And it drove me in, in some way. I’m not sure what that says about me, but it certainly, in terms of setbacks or challenges, I had always thought if you put your head down, you worked hard, you had a good work product, why would someone cut you down? And I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to channel that into a positive way, and I did successfully, and, and I was able to knock it out of the park in the, in the next role. But it definitely shook my confidence, and I had to find a way to build that back. The other area that I’ll highlight, not in terms of a setback again, but just Something that I’ve had to grapple with in my career, and I think many women have to grapple with in their careers, is this Goldilocks notion. I think some folks will guise it under the quote of executive presence in performance reviews and things like that. And I never knew what that meant. And if you know what that means, please let me know. But oftentimes it, it felt like it was code for kind of Goldilocks, right? It’s too little of this, it’s too much of that and it’s not just right. And you’re trying to be just perfect, right? And as a female, as someone who is a person of color, as also a woman in kind of relationship management that doesn’t necessarily always look maybe physically sometimes the, the way that everyone in rooms around me looked, I always felt like I was trying to be this Goldilocks and get it just right. And so it was tweak what you wear, do your hair differently, Maybe you should put on more makeup is something I had been told at some point in my career. And I’ve really had to, particularly in the last 5 to 7 years, I’ll say, I’ve grappled with that. What are the expectations of me from like a societal perspective versus who am I and being comfortable in my own skin and in my own skillset, right? Not having this complex of trying to be something I’m not or trying to fit some mold just because that was what somebody’s impression of what I should or shouldn’t be was. And so in that process, while it certainly hasn’t been a setback, I think both of those situations have forced me to find my own inner strength and authenticity for what I think makes sense for myself and what ultimately is right by my clients and the people that I have to work with. So much of that feedback over the years gave that to me, right? I’ve had this imposter syndrome of always trying to be something. And in the very recent past, and particularly in this new role, I’m just a lot more comfortable being who I am. And that for me is a win.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a win for all of us. It’s so interesting though what you’re saying. First of all, a couple of points, reflections on that. What a mean-spirited individual. The only time I was told that was when I was working as a cocktail waitress where I clearly did not have the executive function to wait tables and I I was told I had no role and it was actually crushing. And I’ve never forgotten those words, even though that wasn’t my career hope and aspire, it definitely makes a difference. And it’s so interesting what you say about how much feedback can feed imposter syndrome because I’ve talked about imposter syndrome quite a lot on this podcast, maybe a little bit in the context of it almost being innate and us being born with it. But actually we forget that it can grow and be, as I said, fed and nurtured by the wrong kind of feedback, non-constructive feedback. Hopefully by the same token, we can also destroy it by not feeding it and actually by, by lifting up that authentic voice that you mentioned. So really beautiful reflections there. Well, let’s move from this negative influence individual who ultimately had a positive effect and influence on you into any other individuals who had a positive influence on you throughout your career, maybe as mentors, as sponsors, otherwise.
Sonali: Yeah, look at it. And I think it should come as no surprise. I’ve talked about them a few times on this podcast thus far. Undoubtedly, the two individuals that have influenced my life the most are my parents. And I 100% would not be where I am today without them, without their support, without their teachings, without their love. And I feel very fortunate in that way. I recognize not everyone can say that, and I can. I came upon this quote yesterday and it really resonated with me. And it said, behind every strong person there’s a story that gave them no choice. And a lot of the individuals that have influenced me in my life, my parents being amongst the first of them, right? It’s exactly that. They have so much resilience, they have so much grit. And for my parents who are immigrants in a new country with no support system, with no family, to come here and build a life for themselves, build a life for their family, give their children a better life than they could have ever conceived of in terms of where they came from. That was not easy. And my parents faced so much adversity when they came here in terms of getting their life up and running, scrimping and scraping to be able to save for their children. And then most importantly, right, my father and my mother, the first place where we lived when I was born, they, as I had shared, started to buy real estate in the early days, and we lived in a building that they had owned, and they were the new landlords. And at that time, the part of Jersey that we lived in had a lot of Irish immigrants and, and all different immigrant communities, but more sort of, I’ll say, European immigrant communities versus someone like us who— we were from India. And it was the point at which, like, folks would be banging on my parents’ pipes and telling them to go home to their own country and taking extreme measures to try to get them out of this building where they had recently become landlords. And that really leaves an impression. And I give you that story not as a, oh gosh, woe is us, not at all. It’s a story of resilience. It’s a story of grit. And at every turn, no matter the adversity, no matter what they faced, my parents always had smiles on their faces. They were so grateful for being in a country that was able to provide them and their family with so much opportunity. And so that’s what I remember. And that for me is something I’ve always carried. On one hand, it’s, listen, you always pick yourself back up and tomorrow will be a better day, right? Just forge ahead. The other thing that it probably gave me was a little bit of a complex of, listen, there are a lot of people who sacrificed for you to get to where you are. Don’t screw it up. And so maybe that makes me a little bit more risk-averse in my own decisions. From a professional perspective, I’ve had a number of incredible individuals that I get to count amongst my sponsors and my mentors. Even Jennifer Strickland obviously is a core one. She helped me at Blue Mountain. She was the individual that brought me to PIMCO and I attribute so much of my career and lessons learned in how to do this business correctly to her. She’s been an incredible mentor, an incredible sponsor. We talked a little bit about the Harry and Jeanette Weinberg Foundation Investment Advisory Committee work that I get to do. John Hook, who is the former CIO, has been a core mentor for me in the industry and someone that had a phenomenal career and someone I was able to learn from. And there’s so many more. There are individuals who really have taken me under their wing over the years and taught me. I think in this business, which is very much an apprenticeship-oriented business, I got to learn from some of the best in the industry at a very young age. And that’s critical. We wouldn’t be where we are as professionals without people like Jen and John.
Aoifinn Devitt: Jennifer is amazing. I completely agree with you there. A true leader in our industry and just absolutely so much experience. My last question is around any advice that some of these amazing mentors left with you, or anything from your faith or from your life so far. Any words of wisdom, any creed or motto?
Sonali: We used to have this running joke when I was at PIMCO, a colleague of mine and I, and we used to put this little Post-it on our computer screen, and it’s going to sound a little bit intense, but I think the motto ultimately prevails. And the words were adapt or die. And I think it speaks so much to the world we live in and the industry that we’re in, right? Which is you need to keep evolving. If you’re not learning, you’re stagnant. If you’re not growing, you’re stagnant. And I think having that growth mindset, having that adaptability, having that flexibility is so key, right? The investment world is shifting constantly. The landscape is shifting, the way people assess risk, the types of things clients care about, the democratization of alternatives, right? All of these things are impacting our industry in real time. And you need to be able to adapt, whether it’s in your personal life, your professional life, in your perspectives. You gotta keep moving. And I think that served me exceptionally well. And something I constantly come back to when I find that I’m stuck. For my younger self, I think you nailed it earlier, right? Which is take the risk, say yes. I think certainly as women, sometimes we tend to overthink things. I certainly do. Raise your hand, take the leap. You don’t have to be 99.9% sure about something before you say yes or no for that matter, right? Kind of use that intuition and take the risk. I wish I had done more of that. And then the last piece of advice I would give, and I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say this on the, on the podcast, but for my younger female self, I wish I had told my 20-year-old self, 20-something-year-old self, to freeze my eggs.
Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely. You never know the twists and turns life will take. Well, thank you so much, Sonali. You’ve always been such a warm and authentic voice in the industry and such a tremendous cheerleader up and down for people at the beginning, middle, and end of their careers. And that is felt. And so appreciated. And thank you for coming here to share your insights, a little bit about your story, how you found your voice, and all of the richness that is in your life today with us.
Sonali: Aoifinn, thank you so much for doing this, for bringing awareness to the industry and to all of these different voices. Thank you. This has been so fun.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors on their personal journeys, Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever.
Sonali: You get your podcasts.
Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
