Aoifinn Devitt: But with the professionalization of sport, with the increasing TV rights and payments, with private equity coming into sport, you see that, for example, in Formula 1, in soccer, and more recently in rugby, that drove change and an increasing demand for sports law expertise. So today, sports law is a genuine career choice for students coming out of university. They have the brilliant opportunity to study it at undergrad level and to do masters in it. There are now sports law departments within bigger law firms, and you even have boutique sports law firms, as well as in-house opportunities with sports federations, marketing companies, and agencies. So the landscape has really changed quite dramatically.
Susan Ahern: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Susan Ahern, who is a barrister, international arbitrator, and accredited mediator with a specialisation in sports law and regulation. She is past chair of the Sports Law Bar Association of Ireland and formerly was general counsel for World Rugby Rugby World Cup Limited. Susan is the first independent judicial chair of World Wheelchair Rugby Independent Vice Chair of the Irish Horse Racing Regulatory Board Appeals Panel, and an arbitrator of the Court of Arbitration for Sport. She has over 25 years’ experience as an INED, including on the board of RTE, UCI 2023 Cycling World Championships, and multiple national sports federations and the Olympic Federation of Ireland. Welcome, Susan. Thanks for joining me today.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you.
Susan Ahern: Well, let’s start by talking about your background. Of course, having overlapped at Trinity, I know a little bit of this. But it’d be great if you could just fill us in on where you were born and what your path to law was.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I was born in County Tipperary in a large town called Clonmel, and I was taught by nuns and lay teachers in the Presentation Convent for 14 years. That actually was a quite a nice combination, and I really did get a good education in that school. And was given the freedom to try things out. So for example, myself and my pal Sarah set up the school cafe, which didn’t exist previously, and I think was a legacy that was left when we went on to university. And it was a school where there was plenty of sport, you know, an all-girls school but plenty of sport. And so really, I actually wanted to be a PE teacher. That’s what I thought I was going to be from a career perspective, and that really did persist until quite late in the day. But in my final year in school, we did debating through a, you know, an inter-schools competition, and to be honest with you, that really opened my eyes to the wider vista, and that included law. So for me, I hadn’t thought about law previously. There were no lawyers in my family, but I began to make that mental adjustment and eventually aimed for law. And of course, you and I, Aoifinn, we did cross over in Trinity College in Dublin, where I was for 4 years, and then I went on and did a year again, a master’s in law in Queen’s University in Belfast. So that’s really, I suppose, the background to how I started in the path to law.
Susan Ahern: So would you say there were any surprising turns along your trajectory so far?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, I would. There have certainly been a couple. I think the first surprising turn was that having, having done those 5 years of law study, I then went and became a banker. And so I became a graduate recruit into corporate banking, into an Irish bank where I had an absolutely fantastic training. And I also managed to meet my husband there. And then after that, I veered into capital markets with a small Belgian bank. And began to do a lot actually of the legal documentation there. And then I moved on in my next role to the National Treasury Management Agency, which was the entity that managed the national debt and pension reserve fund for Ireland. But by that time, I was actually working as a legal counsel because I had completed my barrister training in King’s Inns at night, actually, by that stage. So I had finally, after about 5 years, figured out that I did like the legal side of the house and that I did like the legal side of banking, and that’s where I went to. And that persisted, obviously, for 5 or 6 years. And then surprising turn number 2 was that I applied for a job as legal counsel to the then International Rugby Board, which is now World Rugby, and I was hired. That started my pathway as a sports lawyer, and at the time, both the general counsel, who actually had only been in the job 6 months himself when he hired me, he and I were the only 2 full-time sports lawyers in Ireland at that stage.
Susan Ahern: And that is interesting, actually. Not many lawyers made that move into banking, so well done on even knowing that was a career path, because I don’t think I would have known coming out of Trinity. And then just taking up that sports theme, so you played sports from an early age, you continued it through Trinity. I knew you for your volleyball fame there, and clearly now in your profession. First of all, what role would you say sport has played in your life? How do you think it has changed you as a person? And is it the ultimate confluence of those interests now that take that into law?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I think even you’ve put your finger on it there. If I look back at any one thing that is attributable to the career I’ve had to date, it stems back to volleyball really. But before volleyball, I was an athlete. I started an athletics club at the age of 7. I did shot put. I was quite a good shot putter at the age of 12, but then I stopped growing and soon became quite bad at that and dabbled in hurdles and then really became quite embedded in volleyball, which was introduced in my school when a new teacher came there. And through that process, the school became quite good, our teams were quite good, and I was eventually selected to be a member of the Irish junior volleyball team. And so thereafter followed 11 years playing both junior and senior national team. I played in a club as well as, you know, playing a little bit in Trinity, but mostly I played with a club And through that, I traveled a lot, I coached abroad, I was coached by coaches from abroad, and that was a really a wonderful time and a wonderful learning experience and creating a, I suppose, a family and a network in that environment. And that really led later on, and not very much later on, to getting a tap on the shoulder from the President of Volleyball Ireland because he knew I was studying to be a barrister, and they had a constitutional review that they were doing, and I got the tap on the shoulder to say ‘You’re a lawyer, can you help us out?’ And so really, that was the first step on my sports administration career. And not long after, at the age of 26, I found myself actually running a national sports federation. That was Volleyball Ireland. And I did that as a volunteer and in tandem with my working life for 4 years. So I suppose everything— there was a kind of a step-by-step process through volleyball that led me ultimately into that World Rugby role, because I’m firmly of the view that if I hadn’t had that mix of the athlete experience, the sports administration, as well as the law, that’s not a role that I would have achieved. So yes, I think volleyball really is the singular element that has tied my career to date.
Susan Ahern: And a lot of people credit time in sport, especially as youths, for really forming their personality, maybe their sense of teamwork, discipline, rigor. Not easy sometimes to go out to those early morning trainings. What would you say— would you say for you it made you approach your professional life differently, having been trained to such a high level?
Aoifinn Devitt: Most definitely. I think the most important thing for me was the teamwork element. I really did thrive in that environment. I liked being part of a group of people who had a singular and collective objective, and everybody played their own part and role in doing that. And so when I ultimately did become the head of legal in World Rugby, I approached the management of my team in the same way, kind of like a team captain, that we’re in this together. There’s a collective purpose, there’s mutual support and engagement, because nobody teaches lawyers how to be managers or how to run legal teams. So you have to come up with your own way of doing it. And for me, the easiest analogy and the way that was absolutely deeply embedded in me was running the department like a team.
Susan Ahern: After your time as general counsel at World Rugby, Rugby World Cup Limited, you then decided to go back to the bar. Can you talk us through that decision?
Aoifinn Devitt: Certainly I can. I spent a wonderful 15 years in World Rugby. I had a great innings there and I really grew up and matured as a lawyer. But I also did an enormous amount of travel, and my children were teenagers by that stage, and I really did want to be around them a lot more. And I was also cognizant that we were now entering into a 5th Rugby World Cup cycle, so that was going to be my 5th 4-year cycle, as it were, and I didn’t want to hit repeat. And I was also very cognizant of my age and that I was at about the right age in my early 40s where I could do something different and yet harness the 20 years experience that I had. Because I had trained as a barrister, the bar was always niggling at me in the background, and so I just took the leap with a view to not solely being a barrister but rather having a portfolio approach, because I wanted to combine my love of counsel work in disciplinary tribunals, which was a a big part of the work that I did. But also I had a growing desire to sit on the other side of the table as a decision maker in tribunals and in arbitrations. And then finally, I really wanted to leverage my corporate governance experience and my INET experience as a board director. So that portfolio approach was something that I thought would, I suppose, be the next stage in my career and give me career longevity.
Susan Ahern: Well, we’re going to come and speak about that portfolio approach a little bit later, but first I’d like to dig into the world of sports law because it does sound like for many law students perhaps, or practitioners out there, this could be the ultimate dream job, the fusion of the work and play. Can you speak a little bit about the area of sports law, like how it evolved maybe over the time you were there and what scope you would have had as a general counsel in a role like at World Rugby?
Aoifinn Devitt: Certainly, and I do appreciate what a great and attractive what a great job that was. I’d like to be able to say that I deliberately went down that pathway, but of course it was by dint of just making a series of decisions. I would start by saying that sports lawyers are specialist generalists. You need to know a little bit about a lot and a lot about certain key areas. And back in the early ’90s, when I joined World Rugby, the scope really did encompass both the commercial practice and also the regulatory practice. And so just delving into the commercial side, really you’re looking there at hosting and participation arrangements for all of our tournaments, sponsorship and licensing agreements, and broadcasting. And that’s dealing with whether it’s agencies or direct sales, and ultimately World Rugby set up its own production vehicle for Rugby World Cups. And if I was to give you an example of— I was thinking about this— one of my favorite contracts of the many, many hundreds that I did was actually the arrangement to put a replica of the rugby ball under the Eiffel Tower for the 2007 Rugby World Cup. So there were lovely features like that along the way. But then moving to the other side of the work, then on the regulatory side of the house, that really was dealing with off-field matters. So not necessarily the sport the sports rules themselves, but really everything that went around to support those. And you’re looking at writing those rules, those regulations, interpreting them, educating the membership, and also implementing them before independent tribunals. So that was an area which really, I suppose, if I had a preference, it was probably in that space. I really enjoyed getting my teeth into crafting those regulations. And then a lot of the time was spent in enforcing them. And we did all of that in-house. So our little team, which did expand over the years, but it was one of the features, I think, of that team that we did it ourselves. And we only really went to external counsel in very discrete areas or where we had an official law firm for a Rugby World Cup. So that gave a great sense of ownership, which I certainly took with me throughout my career. That’s the early phase. Those are the two sides of the function, I suppose, of a sports lawyer. But with the professionalization of sport, with the increasing TV rights and payments, with private equity coming into sport, you see that, for example, in Formula One, in soccer, and more recently in rugby, that drove change and an increasing demand for sports law expertise. So today, sports law is a genuine career choice for students coming out of university. They have the brilliant opportunity to study it at undergrad level and to do masters in it. There are now sports law departments within bigger law firms, and you even have boutique sports law firms, as well as in-house opportunities with sports federations, marketing companies and agencies. So the landscape has really changed quite dramatically, but the only downside I would say is that now it’s very difficult to be the generalist traversing both the commercial and regulatory side of sports law in the way that I had that opportunity, because it’s so broad and deep now that students and law graduates and so on tend to now have to choose either the commercial path or the regulatory path, unless of course they start in a small sporting organization.
Susan Ahern: So interesting just how that has become such— and I was just thinking of celebrities buying into Premiership football franchises, that the Ted Lasso effect is alive and well. Really interesting. So besides that, the regulation side and the commercialization side, any other issues that are at the fore or coming to the fore now for sports organizations?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, there are a few that spring to mind, and I think the one that is at the foremost of my mind particularly is safeguarding issues around child protection and also athlete protection. They’re very much in the news, and they are very much at the forefront of the work that sports bodies are doing. I think we’ve certainly seen issues in a number of countries, not least in the United Kingdom, Canada, where these issues are very much alive, and certainly that’s an area where sport needs to focus a significant amount of attention. We’re also seeing an increase in athlete activism. So previously, team sports are reasonably well represented, they’ve got collective bargaining and so on, but for the individual athlete, it is far more difficult. And so now they are starting to work together, really, both within sport and increasingly in external organizations. So you have bodies like Global Athlete who are starting to represent the voice of the individual athlete. And the other area where I think we’re starting to see a recognition that is in the area of diversity and diversity in decision-making, because traditionally sports federations have been predominantly managed by men, and the boards have been reasonably homogeneous. So you are now starting to see diversity coming through, both on a gender and on a minority basis. And I think, just to give you one example, the Irish government has mandated that 40% of the boards of Irish sports governing bodies must be female by 2024. So I think that’s a very solid requirement and a recognition that diversity is essential. And of course, that has come after many years of the organic growth not, not working. So I think those are probably the top 3 issues that I think are on the minds of sports federations at the moment.
Susan Ahern: And recently, a leisure centre near us has a new esports whole division department, as well as we’re hiring for an esports manager. And we’ve heard a little bit about the world of NFTs kind of encroaching on sports area. Is that something that you think is going to start exploding in terms of the esports franchising and digital?
Aoifinn Devitt: Definitely. It already has. I mean, I think if you were looking back and having a conversation 7 or 8 years ago, you might say, well, oh, where is this going to go? But most sports now, certainly the professional sports, will have an esports complement to what they do. You’re seeing it at the Olympic level where you have esports. You’re seeing it coming into, for example, in cycling, the cycling world championships. They now have esports available. It’s a reflection of the generation that are there today. They want to have that optionality. And I think sports who are able to work it into their existing frameworks, that’s great. But also that it sits alone as well. And I have to say, I haven’t had any involvement in where there are professional esports teams, but I am fascinated by them.
Susan Ahern: Yes, I’m watching from afar. I won’t be signing up for that leisure center, I think, anytime soon, but just very interesting to see how much that’s taken share, I suppose. I’d love to ask about some of the arbitration and mediation work that you do. Is this something that grew out of your sports law work? And What skills do you think are needed in the arbitration and mediation area?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I can say that definitely the arbitration piece is a direct next step, in my view, out of the work that I did in World Rugby in terms of being effectively a prosecutor in the role of disciplinary officer for that organization and enforcing regulations before independent tribunals over many years and across many different subject areas. So I came to know and understand that both that disciplinary and arbitral process, it effectively was ingrained in me. And so when I left, part of my idea was to become an arbitrator, to become specifically to start with being a sports arbitrator. And I was very lucky that within a year or so of moving out into my independent practice that I was appointed as an arbitrator of the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which is effectively the Supreme Court of Sport, as it were. I suppose in terms of— I’ve learned a lot in these years. I think that developing a new area of practice into arbitration, into mediation requires quite a degree of patience and a commitment to the long haul because arbitration in particular is built upon networks and reputation and building on your credibility. And so for both arbitration and mediation, you really do need to have a solid foundation of knowledge. You need to have the credentials from the requisite recognized bodies. You do have to engage in speaking on the speaking circuit. You have to network, and you ultimately have to get a lucky break. But of course, having done all that foundation work, you can see how you you would build that lucky break yourself. And so really what that has shown me is, in terms of my skills, I’ve had to really work on communication, on efficiencies, on building rapport with the appointing institutions and with my colleagues at the Bar, which are both sources of work essentially. And I think if I look at mediation, and I’ve actually just come from a mediation conference this afternoon, One of the key things there, and a differential from arbitration or from tribunal work, is the mediator is not making a decision, and their job is to actively listen. And so I’ve had to learn how to switch my mindset from that sort of confrontational environment to one where it is a consensus-building environment. And that really is— that’s a challenge, and it’s a great challenge. I really relish that particular environment.
Susan Ahern: It sounds so interesting just taking into account, I suppose, the listing aspect and also the complexity. And I suppose the reduction of issues to multi-issue as opposed to single issue where there can often be that conflict. I only learned that for the first time in business school around negotiations. So I think maybe that is actually ultimately more intellectually stimulating as well when we start to look at things as complex, nuanced, and multi-issue.
Aoifinn Devitt: Exactly. And sometimes the dispute that you come into the room to deal with isn’t actually the real dispute. And I think spending a day or however long it takes in trying to peel away the layers and get to the essence of the issues. There’s always a turning point in a mediation where you can see a pathway to, I won’t say solution, but a pathway to compromise. That’s always a lovely moment in in a, a mediation from the mediator’s perspective, at least.
Susan Ahern: Interesting. So we’ve gone from the question behind the question to the dispute behind the dispute. It certainly sounds like we’re into multi-layered analysis there, but, but I can see the intellectual challenge and perhaps the satisfaction. And governance is like that. So you now have a lot of experience in different governance roles, directorships, as well as many board roles, INED roles. What would you say you bring to those roles? And what do you think makes a good director or chair in your view?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, as an INED, I mean, the first thing I bring is independence. If you don’t bring that, then you’re not much of an INED. So I would say independence is key. But personally, I also bring pragmatism and decisiveness. I very much like— in the INED world, I like the practicality of dealing with business issues, whatever the business happens to be, and trying to look and see where the business is going strategically and that the right people are there to deliver on those strategic objectives. I suppose the sum of my various— because of the sum of my various experiences, I’m frequently selected to be on the audit and risk committees of these bodies or the broadcasting committees or inputting into crisis management policies. So you bring a general independence, but then also the specific skills that are coming from having that banking and legal background are generally, I suppose, plucked out by the Chair to be used in a functionally appropriate way. In terms of what goes into being a good director, really, you absolutely have to know what your duties are and you have to fulfill them, and exercising that independence of judgment. So that’s at the very high level. I think from my practical experience, I think it’s really important that independent directors contribute across all areas, not just their own areas of expertise, and that they’re clear on where conflicts of interest arise, because sometimes having the insight to understand that as well is important. And simple things as well, Aoifinn, like just being prepared for meetings, reading your papers, being supportive of the executive, but not being shy about asking the hard questions. And I am increasingly looking at things like culture of the organization and ESG, so that environmental, social, and governance responsibilities, and where they sit within organizations and how they’re being reported against. So I think that that space is evolving and evolving quite quickly. And you asked me as well about what goes into being a good chair, and I have really had the benefit of sitting on boards with good chairs, and I think The key thing for me is that they are the communication link between the CEO and the board, and of course also between the board and the CEO. And if that individual is balanced and is able to bring all of the board members into the various discussions so that they all contribute in a balanced way, that’s hugely important. And obviously that they’re able to chair a meeting within an agenda and stick to timeframes, these are actually quite important aspects of that role.
Susan Ahern: The reason I ask that question is it’s so rare that you actually get the manual or you get the course in what it takes. It really does come, as you mentioned, a bit about the personalities and knowing them, but also watching a good chair in action is so important. It’s the ultimate apprenticeship role, I think, and the same for a director. I’d love to go back to that diversity point you brought up earlier. You mentioned how we’re kind of getting it right in terms of maybe arranging some of the review panels, et cetera, now. But sport is not known to be a particularly, I suppose, equitable area when it comes to the amount of airtime, money male and female athletes get. We don’t see as much perhaps in sports being— in the US now it is, but in every country there may not be the same amount invested in female sport. But then to take that also to your profession and your experience around diversity, How has your experience of diversity been, I suppose, both from a professional standpoint and in watching the industry in which you work?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, if I look at the legal side of things first, I think the legal profession has gone through considerable change in the past decade in particular, even though I still believe it has further to go. And even though there are more women now, certainly in Ireland and the UK, who are entering the legal profession, after about the first 5 years, you start to see a divergence in terms of how women are doing and their numbers being maintained. So I’ve been pleased to see the focus of the law societies in Ireland, the UK, and also the Bar of Ireland on initiatives like Women in Law Pledge or gender equality and inclusion charters, or more recently for my own professional body, the equitable briefing policy that they have introduced in order to try and ensure that women in the law are getting the same opportunities. And that’s not just to get work, but also to get the high-earning work, the commercial work, and so on. So that’s been an interesting thing for me to see and be involved with. And similar activities are happening in the arbitration world as well. You do have bodies like Arbitral Women who launched an equitable representation and arbitration pledge. And you see the institutional bodies like the ICC and the LCIA really trying to promote women and appointing them as arbitrators. So all of those things have really happened pretty much in the last decade or so. So that takes me back, I suppose, to when I started, which was well beyond that. And when I started, really, it was a bit of a base zero in all environments. There were no female heads of departments or directors. And this is not just within the legal environments, also in banking. There really were no role models at that C-suite level. And that began to change as I entered the C-suite, as it were. So for me, in many ways— and I was thinking about it lately— in many ways, I just took the environment I was in and worked with it. And it’s really more in retrospect that I understand and see how that was not necessarily a straightforward pathway. And so I’m really pleased to see that society in general is really working on trying to have more women involved in decision-making. And I’m very supportive of initiatives like the 30% Club for women on boards. I think that the trend is really going in the right direction. I think the conversations that are being had in business, in law, in arbitration are the right ones and they’re entirely appropriate. But I still think it’s very slow, and I think there still remains the danger that female talent will be lost because, quite frankly, I think there are easier jobs in this world to do than law. And so therefore, it was really incumbent on law firms and law societies and bar councils to keep working towards equity for their female members.
Susan Ahern: And then just the backdrop in sport itself. I know this wasn’t a scripted question, but how do you think we’re making strides there?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I think in sport there’s been an exponential change. If you start maybe at the top of the pyramid with the International Olympic Committee, there is now equal representation of men and women at the Olympic Games. That was a policy they pursued over a long period of time that has now been achieved. And so that then has— because they are at the pinnacle, that has a way of filtering down. And so you are seeing across sports, you are seeing those efforts to try and create that equitable balance.. Now, I haven’t done an analysis across sports of recent times, but you really are starting to— if I take rugby as an example, previously you had a Women’s Rugby World Cup and you had the Rugby World Cup, female Rugby World Cup, and then the Rugby World Cup was the men. A number of years ago, they changed that nomenclature and they are all Rugby World Cups, and the differentiating feature is now the year. And so that was an effort to try and say, well, actually they’re all Rugby World Cups. They just happen to be men or they happen to be women. And you’re also seeing female representation being deliberately increased in sports like that where you have that 40% representation. But if I look back maybe to more locally in Ireland, there was an extremely successful program that was run by a number of organizations called ‘If She Can See It, She Can Be It,’ and it has won numerous awards because what it did is it showcased girls and women playing sport. It showcased those women that can be role models for younger girls so that they could see women playing sport and they could actually think, you know what, that’s something I would like to do, and if she can do it, I can do it. And that has been enormously successful and has resulted in the transformation, certainly in television in Ireland, on the amount of female sports that is now being shown on television. Has it a ways to go? Of course it does. But having started from effectively ground zero, there has been massive change. And I think that is going to continue because we are never going to go back. Once women are given an opportunity and once girls are given an opportunity to get into a space and make it their own, they’re not going to give that up easily. So I’m really hopeful for the future.
Susan Ahern: Well, really great to hear that, I have to say. So thank you for the insights from the inside, I suppose. And you’re an athlete, you’re used to winning and losing. If you look back at your career, just on the moving to the reflection section here, would you say there are any highs or lows or any particular setbacks that you learned lessons from?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, and I think it’s always hard to be honest with yourself and talk about your setbacks, but I think it’s fair to say that everybody has them. And the one that I think is probably the most recent for me was at the time when I transitioned from being a general counsel and head of a legal department doing really stimulating legal work with a great team, which was mostly female, I have to say, and I moved to try and establish myself as a barrister and build my arbitration career. That was not an easy transition, and when I had a bad day in court or worse, no solicitor instructions, I wondered if I had made the right decision. But I am resilient, and I do— you won’t be surprised to hear— have that competitive streak. And so I just had to set myself the challenge of doing something every day that incrementally moved me forward. At least in my own mind. And so I went on lots of boards and bar committees and did lots of CPD and generally got stuck in. And actually, that incremental work is paying dividends now. So looking, I suppose, at the highs, if I think about my past career in rugby, I would have to say that running the legal and disciplinary teams at two Rugby World Cups one in New Zealand in 2011 and then in England in 2015. They are 7-week marathons in the midst of the media eye, which are wildly exhausting, full of ups and downs and issues and very little sleep, but they were exhilarating. So that was a real high for me in my past career in-house. But now today, I would say that my greatest high was being appointed as an arbitrator to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, actually at the Tokyo Olympic Games. It was a high point, but it was also a privilege because those games, due to COVID, obviously had no spectators. So it was just the athletes, it was just their coaches and entourage. And the referees and officials, of which we were one, who were permitted entry. So that really was a special time. Wow.
Susan Ahern: As you’re describing disciplinary committees, and I’m thinking of all the disciplinary infractions in sport and the amount of tabloid headlines that even one will get, I think we’ll have to dedicate a whole podcast series to ethics and sports. But we’ll leave that for another day. Another thing I want to just get back to is when I speak with people who’ve had a lot of sports in their background, coaching and coaches come up time and time again. And I’ve heard about people seeking to have bosses who are like coaches because of that deep personal interest a coach has in your success. And I’d love to ask if there have been people in your life, whether they’re coaches or otherwise, that have had a pivotal role for you.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, clearly coaches do. When you’re on the field of play, you follow their pathway and you, you pretty much have to because if you don’t, you’re not going to make the team. But then you have the choices to be a member of that team or not. But in my working life, I would say I haven’t had a specific mentor or coach in my career path, but there have been a couple of people who I would call out as maybe changing the trajectory of my life. And I did mention before the president of Volleyball Ireland, a man called Aidan Curran, who, who was the man who tapped me on the shoulder way back when I was but a young lawyer, and started my sports administration career. So I look back on that, I suppose it’s more of a turning point than anything else. But the other individual that had a big influence on me was the Judicial Panel Chair of World Rugby, a man named Tim Gressom, who I did work with very closely for 15 years. And he was a former Crown Prosecutor in his home country and also a rugby referee, and for me, he was a great sounding board. Board, and I really did learn everything about rugby discipline from him, as well as getting insights from a criminal law perspective that I might not otherwise have had, and they have served me well in my tribunal and arbitration careers. And I think it would be remiss of me if I didn’t mention my husband, who has been a huge supporter in my career and in life, and we’ve been equal partners in that journey. And I think my career would not have been possible without his support.
Susan Ahern: Well, that’s lovely to say, and I’m sure he’s got some prime seats at some prime sporting events as well as part of the journey.
Aoifinn Devitt: So I guess there’s always a trade-off.
Susan Ahern: Indeed, always a trade-off. Well, my last question is around any creed or motto that you live by or any words of advice that you have maybe found to be important for you and your trajectory, or that you would have given your younger self perhaps. So a bunch of questions thrown in there, but really just getting around words of wisdom.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m not great with words of wisdom, and I was thinking about this, and actually what I came back to was I had an uncle who lived in the, in the United States, and who on a visit home when I was about 12 or 13, he brought me a poster of an athlete jumping a hurdle. Obviously I was a hurdler at that time, and that poster had a quote, and it was ‘Dream your dream, awake in action.’ And that poster resided on the inside of my wardrobe until I left home to go to college. And so when I meet a hurdle in my career, I think of that and it spurs me on. And I also think about it when I actually achieve something. So I think about it both positively, in a positive frame of mind, and also in a negative frame of mind. And I suppose I would say that I, I do see the world as a place of opportunity, and I do see life as a journey. It’s made up of many, many parts, and I consider that I have been really fortunate to have had 3 phases to my career so far, and I don’t believe I’m done yet.
Susan Ahern: Just thinking of those words of wisdom, sports really is the ultimate petri dish of life, so it’s no surprise that we get so many inspiring quotes from sports and from some of the players. So thank you so much, Susan. You’ve always been a wonderful teammate. I think we were on a moot court team at one point, as well as a team player. And I think you’re doing this now for the industry as a whole, being a wonderful team player, pushing forward the equity that we spoke about before, and being a wonderful role model for the generations coming behind. So thank you so much for coming here and sharing your insights with us.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you, Aoifinn. It’s been my pleasure.
Susan Ahern: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear from more inspiring lawyers and their stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: But with the professionalization of sport, with the increasing TV rights and payments, with private equity coming into sport, you see that, for example, in Formula 1, in soccer, and more recently in rugby, that drove change and an increasing demand for sports law expertise. So today, sports law is a genuine career choice for students coming out of university. They have the brilliant opportunity to study it at undergrad level and to do masters in it. There are now sports law departments within bigger law firms, and you even have boutique sports law firms, as well as in-house opportunities with sports federations, marketing companies, and agencies. So the landscape has really changed quite dramatically.
Susan Ahern: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Susan Ahern, who is a barrister, international arbitrator, and accredited mediator with a specialisation in sports law and regulation. She is past chair of the Sports Law Bar Association of Ireland and formerly was general counsel for World Rugby Rugby World Cup Limited. Susan is the first independent judicial chair of World Wheelchair Rugby Independent Vice Chair of the Irish Horse Racing Regulatory Board Appeals Panel, and an arbitrator of the Court of Arbitration for Sport. She has over 25 years’ experience as an INED, including on the board of RTE, UCI 2023 Cycling World Championships, and multiple national sports federations and the Olympic Federation of Ireland. Welcome, Susan. Thanks for joining me today.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you.
Susan Ahern: Well, let’s start by talking about your background. Of course, having overlapped at Trinity, I know a little bit of this. But it’d be great if you could just fill us in on where you were born and what your path to law was.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I was born in County Tipperary in a large town called Clonmel, and I was taught by nuns and lay teachers in the Presentation Convent for 14 years. That actually was a quite a nice combination, and I really did get a good education in that school. And was given the freedom to try things out. So for example, myself and my pal Sarah set up the school cafe, which didn’t exist previously, and I think was a legacy that was left when we went on to university. And it was a school where there was plenty of sport, you know, an all-girls school but plenty of sport. And so really, I actually wanted to be a PE teacher. That’s what I thought I was going to be from a career perspective, and that really did persist until quite late in the day. But in my final year in school, we did debating through a, you know, an inter-schools competition, and to be honest with you, that really opened my eyes to the wider vista, and that included law. So for me, I hadn’t thought about law previously. There were no lawyers in my family, but I began to make that mental adjustment and eventually aimed for law. And of course, you and I, Aoifinn, we did cross over in Trinity College in Dublin, where I was for 4 years, and then I went on and did a year again, a master’s in law in Queen’s University in Belfast. So that’s really, I suppose, the background to how I started in the path to law.
Susan Ahern: So would you say there were any surprising turns along your trajectory so far?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, I would. There have certainly been a couple. I think the first surprising turn was that having, having done those 5 years of law study, I then went and became a banker. And so I became a graduate recruit into corporate banking, into an Irish bank where I had an absolutely fantastic training. And I also managed to meet my husband there. And then after that, I veered into capital markets with a small Belgian bank. And began to do a lot actually of the legal documentation there. And then I moved on in my next role to the National Treasury Management Agency, which was the entity that managed the national debt and pension reserve fund for Ireland. But by that time, I was actually working as a legal counsel because I had completed my barrister training in King’s Inns at night, actually, by that stage. So I had finally, after about 5 years, figured out that I did like the legal side of the house and that I did like the legal side of banking, and that’s where I went to. And that persisted, obviously, for 5 or 6 years. And then surprising turn number 2 was that I applied for a job as legal counsel to the then International Rugby Board, which is now World Rugby, and I was hired. That started my pathway as a sports lawyer, and at the time, both the general counsel, who actually had only been in the job 6 months himself when he hired me, he and I were the only 2 full-time sports lawyers in Ireland at that stage.
Susan Ahern: And that is interesting, actually. Not many lawyers made that move into banking, so well done on even knowing that was a career path, because I don’t think I would have known coming out of Trinity. And then just taking up that sports theme, so you played sports from an early age, you continued it through Trinity. I knew you for your volleyball fame there, and clearly now in your profession. First of all, what role would you say sport has played in your life? How do you think it has changed you as a person? And is it the ultimate confluence of those interests now that take that into law?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I think even you’ve put your finger on it there. If I look back at any one thing that is attributable to the career I’ve had to date, it stems back to volleyball really. But before volleyball, I was an athlete. I started an athletics club at the age of 7. I did shot put. I was quite a good shot putter at the age of 12, but then I stopped growing and soon became quite bad at that and dabbled in hurdles and then really became quite embedded in volleyball, which was introduced in my school when a new teacher came there. And through that process, the school became quite good, our teams were quite good, and I was eventually selected to be a member of the Irish junior volleyball team. And so thereafter followed 11 years playing both junior and senior national team. I played in a club as well as, you know, playing a little bit in Trinity, but mostly I played with a club And through that, I traveled a lot, I coached abroad, I was coached by coaches from abroad, and that was a really a wonderful time and a wonderful learning experience and creating a, I suppose, a family and a network in that environment. And that really led later on, and not very much later on, to getting a tap on the shoulder from the President of Volleyball Ireland because he knew I was studying to be a barrister, and they had a constitutional review that they were doing, and I got the tap on the shoulder to say ‘You’re a lawyer, can you help us out?’ And so really, that was the first step on my sports administration career. And not long after, at the age of 26, I found myself actually running a national sports federation. That was Volleyball Ireland. And I did that as a volunteer and in tandem with my working life for 4 years. So I suppose everything— there was a kind of a step-by-step process through volleyball that led me ultimately into that World Rugby role, because I’m firmly of the view that if I hadn’t had that mix of the athlete experience, the sports administration, as well as the law, that’s not a role that I would have achieved. So yes, I think volleyball really is the singular element that has tied my career to date.
Susan Ahern: And a lot of people credit time in sport, especially as youths, for really forming their personality, maybe their sense of teamwork, discipline, rigor. Not easy sometimes to go out to those early morning trainings. What would you say— would you say for you it made you approach your professional life differently, having been trained to such a high level?
Aoifinn Devitt: Most definitely. I think the most important thing for me was the teamwork element. I really did thrive in that environment. I liked being part of a group of people who had a singular and collective objective, and everybody played their own part and role in doing that. And so when I ultimately did become the head of legal in World Rugby, I approached the management of my team in the same way, kind of like a team captain, that we’re in this together. There’s a collective purpose, there’s mutual support and engagement, because nobody teaches lawyers how to be managers or how to run legal teams. So you have to come up with your own way of doing it. And for me, the easiest analogy and the way that was absolutely deeply embedded in me was running the department like a team.
Susan Ahern: After your time as general counsel at World Rugby, Rugby World Cup Limited, you then decided to go back to the bar. Can you talk us through that decision?
Aoifinn Devitt: Certainly I can. I spent a wonderful 15 years in World Rugby. I had a great innings there and I really grew up and matured as a lawyer. But I also did an enormous amount of travel, and my children were teenagers by that stage, and I really did want to be around them a lot more. And I was also cognizant that we were now entering into a 5th Rugby World Cup cycle, so that was going to be my 5th 4-year cycle, as it were, and I didn’t want to hit repeat. And I was also very cognizant of my age and that I was at about the right age in my early 40s where I could do something different and yet harness the 20 years experience that I had. Because I had trained as a barrister, the bar was always niggling at me in the background, and so I just took the leap with a view to not solely being a barrister but rather having a portfolio approach, because I wanted to combine my love of counsel work in disciplinary tribunals, which was a a big part of the work that I did. But also I had a growing desire to sit on the other side of the table as a decision maker in tribunals and in arbitrations. And then finally, I really wanted to leverage my corporate governance experience and my INET experience as a board director. So that portfolio approach was something that I thought would, I suppose, be the next stage in my career and give me career longevity.
Susan Ahern: Well, we’re going to come and speak about that portfolio approach a little bit later, but first I’d like to dig into the world of sports law because it does sound like for many law students perhaps, or practitioners out there, this could be the ultimate dream job, the fusion of the work and play. Can you speak a little bit about the area of sports law, like how it evolved maybe over the time you were there and what scope you would have had as a general counsel in a role like at World Rugby?
Aoifinn Devitt: Certainly, and I do appreciate what a great and attractive what a great job that was. I’d like to be able to say that I deliberately went down that pathway, but of course it was by dint of just making a series of decisions. I would start by saying that sports lawyers are specialist generalists. You need to know a little bit about a lot and a lot about certain key areas. And back in the early ’90s, when I joined World Rugby, the scope really did encompass both the commercial practice and also the regulatory practice. And so just delving into the commercial side, really you’re looking there at hosting and participation arrangements for all of our tournaments, sponsorship and licensing agreements, and broadcasting. And that’s dealing with whether it’s agencies or direct sales, and ultimately World Rugby set up its own production vehicle for Rugby World Cups. And if I was to give you an example of— I was thinking about this— one of my favorite contracts of the many, many hundreds that I did was actually the arrangement to put a replica of the rugby ball under the Eiffel Tower for the 2007 Rugby World Cup. So there were lovely features like that along the way. But then moving to the other side of the work, then on the regulatory side of the house, that really was dealing with off-field matters. So not necessarily the sport the sports rules themselves, but really everything that went around to support those. And you’re looking at writing those rules, those regulations, interpreting them, educating the membership, and also implementing them before independent tribunals. So that was an area which really, I suppose, if I had a preference, it was probably in that space. I really enjoyed getting my teeth into crafting those regulations. And then a lot of the time was spent in enforcing them. And we did all of that in-house. So our little team, which did expand over the years, but it was one of the features, I think, of that team that we did it ourselves. And we only really went to external counsel in very discrete areas or where we had an official law firm for a Rugby World Cup. So that gave a great sense of ownership, which I certainly took with me throughout my career. That’s the early phase. Those are the two sides of the function, I suppose, of a sports lawyer. But with the professionalization of sport, with the increasing TV rights and payments, with private equity coming into sport, you see that, for example, in Formula One, in soccer, and more recently in rugby, that drove change and an increasing demand for sports law expertise. So today, sports law is a genuine career choice for students coming out of university. They have the brilliant opportunity to study it at undergrad level and to do masters in it. There are now sports law departments within bigger law firms, and you even have boutique sports law firms, as well as in-house opportunities with sports federations, marketing companies and agencies. So the landscape has really changed quite dramatically, but the only downside I would say is that now it’s very difficult to be the generalist traversing both the commercial and regulatory side of sports law in the way that I had that opportunity, because it’s so broad and deep now that students and law graduates and so on tend to now have to choose either the commercial path or the regulatory path, unless of course they start in a small sporting organization.
Susan Ahern: So interesting just how that has become such— and I was just thinking of celebrities buying into Premiership football franchises, that the Ted Lasso effect is alive and well. Really interesting. So besides that, the regulation side and the commercialization side, any other issues that are at the fore or coming to the fore now for sports organizations?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, there are a few that spring to mind, and I think the one that is at the foremost of my mind particularly is safeguarding issues around child protection and also athlete protection. They’re very much in the news, and they are very much at the forefront of the work that sports bodies are doing. I think we’ve certainly seen issues in a number of countries, not least in the United Kingdom, Canada, where these issues are very much alive, and certainly that’s an area where sport needs to focus a significant amount of attention. We’re also seeing an increase in athlete activism. So previously, team sports are reasonably well represented, they’ve got collective bargaining and so on, but for the individual athlete, it is far more difficult. And so now they are starting to work together, really, both within sport and increasingly in external organizations. So you have bodies like Global Athlete who are starting to represent the voice of the individual athlete. And the other area where I think we’re starting to see a recognition that is in the area of diversity and diversity in decision-making, because traditionally sports federations have been predominantly managed by men, and the boards have been reasonably homogeneous. So you are now starting to see diversity coming through, both on a gender and on a minority basis. And I think, just to give you one example, the Irish government has mandated that 40% of the boards of Irish sports governing bodies must be female by 2024. So I think that’s a very solid requirement and a recognition that diversity is essential. And of course, that has come after many years of the organic growth not, not working. So I think those are probably the top 3 issues that I think are on the minds of sports federations at the moment.
Susan Ahern: And recently, a leisure centre near us has a new esports whole division department, as well as we’re hiring for an esports manager. And we’ve heard a little bit about the world of NFTs kind of encroaching on sports area. Is that something that you think is going to start exploding in terms of the esports franchising and digital?
Aoifinn Devitt: Definitely. It already has. I mean, I think if you were looking back and having a conversation 7 or 8 years ago, you might say, well, oh, where is this going to go? But most sports now, certainly the professional sports, will have an esports complement to what they do. You’re seeing it at the Olympic level where you have esports. You’re seeing it coming into, for example, in cycling, the cycling world championships. They now have esports available. It’s a reflection of the generation that are there today. They want to have that optionality. And I think sports who are able to work it into their existing frameworks, that’s great. But also that it sits alone as well. And I have to say, I haven’t had any involvement in where there are professional esports teams, but I am fascinated by them.
Susan Ahern: Yes, I’m watching from afar. I won’t be signing up for that leisure center, I think, anytime soon, but just very interesting to see how much that’s taken share, I suppose. I’d love to ask about some of the arbitration and mediation work that you do. Is this something that grew out of your sports law work? And What skills do you think are needed in the arbitration and mediation area?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I can say that definitely the arbitration piece is a direct next step, in my view, out of the work that I did in World Rugby in terms of being effectively a prosecutor in the role of disciplinary officer for that organization and enforcing regulations before independent tribunals over many years and across many different subject areas. So I came to know and understand that both that disciplinary and arbitral process, it effectively was ingrained in me. And so when I left, part of my idea was to become an arbitrator, to become specifically to start with being a sports arbitrator. And I was very lucky that within a year or so of moving out into my independent practice that I was appointed as an arbitrator of the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which is effectively the Supreme Court of Sport, as it were. I suppose in terms of— I’ve learned a lot in these years. I think that developing a new area of practice into arbitration, into mediation requires quite a degree of patience and a commitment to the long haul because arbitration in particular is built upon networks and reputation and building on your credibility. And so for both arbitration and mediation, you really do need to have a solid foundation of knowledge. You need to have the credentials from the requisite recognized bodies. You do have to engage in speaking on the speaking circuit. You have to network, and you ultimately have to get a lucky break. But of course, having done all that foundation work, you can see how you you would build that lucky break yourself. And so really what that has shown me is, in terms of my skills, I’ve had to really work on communication, on efficiencies, on building rapport with the appointing institutions and with my colleagues at the Bar, which are both sources of work essentially. And I think if I look at mediation, and I’ve actually just come from a mediation conference this afternoon, One of the key things there, and a differential from arbitration or from tribunal work, is the mediator is not making a decision, and their job is to actively listen. And so I’ve had to learn how to switch my mindset from that sort of confrontational environment to one where it is a consensus-building environment. And that really is— that’s a challenge, and it’s a great challenge. I really relish that particular environment.
Susan Ahern: It sounds so interesting just taking into account, I suppose, the listing aspect and also the complexity. And I suppose the reduction of issues to multi-issue as opposed to single issue where there can often be that conflict. I only learned that for the first time in business school around negotiations. So I think maybe that is actually ultimately more intellectually stimulating as well when we start to look at things as complex, nuanced, and multi-issue.
Aoifinn Devitt: Exactly. And sometimes the dispute that you come into the room to deal with isn’t actually the real dispute. And I think spending a day or however long it takes in trying to peel away the layers and get to the essence of the issues. There’s always a turning point in a mediation where you can see a pathway to, I won’t say solution, but a pathway to compromise. That’s always a lovely moment in in a, a mediation from the mediator’s perspective, at least.
Susan Ahern: Interesting. So we’ve gone from the question behind the question to the dispute behind the dispute. It certainly sounds like we’re into multi-layered analysis there, but, but I can see the intellectual challenge and perhaps the satisfaction. And governance is like that. So you now have a lot of experience in different governance roles, directorships, as well as many board roles, INED roles. What would you say you bring to those roles? And what do you think makes a good director or chair in your view?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, as an INED, I mean, the first thing I bring is independence. If you don’t bring that, then you’re not much of an INED. So I would say independence is key. But personally, I also bring pragmatism and decisiveness. I very much like— in the INED world, I like the practicality of dealing with business issues, whatever the business happens to be, and trying to look and see where the business is going strategically and that the right people are there to deliver on those strategic objectives. I suppose the sum of my various— because of the sum of my various experiences, I’m frequently selected to be on the audit and risk committees of these bodies or the broadcasting committees or inputting into crisis management policies. So you bring a general independence, but then also the specific skills that are coming from having that banking and legal background are generally, I suppose, plucked out by the Chair to be used in a functionally appropriate way. In terms of what goes into being a good director, really, you absolutely have to know what your duties are and you have to fulfill them, and exercising that independence of judgment. So that’s at the very high level. I think from my practical experience, I think it’s really important that independent directors contribute across all areas, not just their own areas of expertise, and that they’re clear on where conflicts of interest arise, because sometimes having the insight to understand that as well is important. And simple things as well, Aoifinn, like just being prepared for meetings, reading your papers, being supportive of the executive, but not being shy about asking the hard questions. And I am increasingly looking at things like culture of the organization and ESG, so that environmental, social, and governance responsibilities, and where they sit within organizations and how they’re being reported against. So I think that that space is evolving and evolving quite quickly. And you asked me as well about what goes into being a good chair, and I have really had the benefit of sitting on boards with good chairs, and I think The key thing for me is that they are the communication link between the CEO and the board, and of course also between the board and the CEO. And if that individual is balanced and is able to bring all of the board members into the various discussions so that they all contribute in a balanced way, that’s hugely important. And obviously that they’re able to chair a meeting within an agenda and stick to timeframes, these are actually quite important aspects of that role.
Susan Ahern: The reason I ask that question is it’s so rare that you actually get the manual or you get the course in what it takes. It really does come, as you mentioned, a bit about the personalities and knowing them, but also watching a good chair in action is so important. It’s the ultimate apprenticeship role, I think, and the same for a director. I’d love to go back to that diversity point you brought up earlier. You mentioned how we’re kind of getting it right in terms of maybe arranging some of the review panels, et cetera, now. But sport is not known to be a particularly, I suppose, equitable area when it comes to the amount of airtime, money male and female athletes get. We don’t see as much perhaps in sports being— in the US now it is, but in every country there may not be the same amount invested in female sport. But then to take that also to your profession and your experience around diversity, How has your experience of diversity been, I suppose, both from a professional standpoint and in watching the industry in which you work?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, if I look at the legal side of things first, I think the legal profession has gone through considerable change in the past decade in particular, even though I still believe it has further to go. And even though there are more women now, certainly in Ireland and the UK, who are entering the legal profession, after about the first 5 years, you start to see a divergence in terms of how women are doing and their numbers being maintained. So I’ve been pleased to see the focus of the law societies in Ireland, the UK, and also the Bar of Ireland on initiatives like Women in Law Pledge or gender equality and inclusion charters, or more recently for my own professional body, the equitable briefing policy that they have introduced in order to try and ensure that women in the law are getting the same opportunities. And that’s not just to get work, but also to get the high-earning work, the commercial work, and so on. So that’s been an interesting thing for me to see and be involved with. And similar activities are happening in the arbitration world as well. You do have bodies like Arbitral Women who launched an equitable representation and arbitration pledge. And you see the institutional bodies like the ICC and the LCIA really trying to promote women and appointing them as arbitrators. So all of those things have really happened pretty much in the last decade or so. So that takes me back, I suppose, to when I started, which was well beyond that. And when I started, really, it was a bit of a base zero in all environments. There were no female heads of departments or directors. And this is not just within the legal environments, also in banking. There really were no role models at that C-suite level. And that began to change as I entered the C-suite, as it were. So for me, in many ways— and I was thinking about it lately— in many ways, I just took the environment I was in and worked with it. And it’s really more in retrospect that I understand and see how that was not necessarily a straightforward pathway. And so I’m really pleased to see that society in general is really working on trying to have more women involved in decision-making. And I’m very supportive of initiatives like the 30% Club for women on boards. I think that the trend is really going in the right direction. I think the conversations that are being had in business, in law, in arbitration are the right ones and they’re entirely appropriate. But I still think it’s very slow, and I think there still remains the danger that female talent will be lost because, quite frankly, I think there are easier jobs in this world to do than law. And so therefore, it was really incumbent on law firms and law societies and bar councils to keep working towards equity for their female members.
Susan Ahern: And then just the backdrop in sport itself. I know this wasn’t a scripted question, but how do you think we’re making strides there?
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I think in sport there’s been an exponential change. If you start maybe at the top of the pyramid with the International Olympic Committee, there is now equal representation of men and women at the Olympic Games. That was a policy they pursued over a long period of time that has now been achieved. And so that then has— because they are at the pinnacle, that has a way of filtering down. And so you are seeing across sports, you are seeing those efforts to try and create that equitable balance.. Now, I haven’t done an analysis across sports of recent times, but you really are starting to— if I take rugby as an example, previously you had a Women’s Rugby World Cup and you had the Rugby World Cup, female Rugby World Cup, and then the Rugby World Cup was the men. A number of years ago, they changed that nomenclature and they are all Rugby World Cups, and the differentiating feature is now the year. And so that was an effort to try and say, well, actually they’re all Rugby World Cups. They just happen to be men or they happen to be women. And you’re also seeing female representation being deliberately increased in sports like that where you have that 40% representation. But if I look back maybe to more locally in Ireland, there was an extremely successful program that was run by a number of organizations called ‘If She Can See It, She Can Be It,’ and it has won numerous awards because what it did is it showcased girls and women playing sport. It showcased those women that can be role models for younger girls so that they could see women playing sport and they could actually think, you know what, that’s something I would like to do, and if she can do it, I can do it. And that has been enormously successful and has resulted in the transformation, certainly in television in Ireland, on the amount of female sports that is now being shown on television. Has it a ways to go? Of course it does. But having started from effectively ground zero, there has been massive change. And I think that is going to continue because we are never going to go back. Once women are given an opportunity and once girls are given an opportunity to get into a space and make it their own, they’re not going to give that up easily. So I’m really hopeful for the future.
Susan Ahern: Well, really great to hear that, I have to say. So thank you for the insights from the inside, I suppose. And you’re an athlete, you’re used to winning and losing. If you look back at your career, just on the moving to the reflection section here, would you say there are any highs or lows or any particular setbacks that you learned lessons from?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, and I think it’s always hard to be honest with yourself and talk about your setbacks, but I think it’s fair to say that everybody has them. And the one that I think is probably the most recent for me was at the time when I transitioned from being a general counsel and head of a legal department doing really stimulating legal work with a great team, which was mostly female, I have to say, and I moved to try and establish myself as a barrister and build my arbitration career. That was not an easy transition, and when I had a bad day in court or worse, no solicitor instructions, I wondered if I had made the right decision. But I am resilient, and I do— you won’t be surprised to hear— have that competitive streak. And so I just had to set myself the challenge of doing something every day that incrementally moved me forward. At least in my own mind. And so I went on lots of boards and bar committees and did lots of CPD and generally got stuck in. And actually, that incremental work is paying dividends now. So looking, I suppose, at the highs, if I think about my past career in rugby, I would have to say that running the legal and disciplinary teams at two Rugby World Cups one in New Zealand in 2011 and then in England in 2015. They are 7-week marathons in the midst of the media eye, which are wildly exhausting, full of ups and downs and issues and very little sleep, but they were exhilarating. So that was a real high for me in my past career in-house. But now today, I would say that my greatest high was being appointed as an arbitrator to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, actually at the Tokyo Olympic Games. It was a high point, but it was also a privilege because those games, due to COVID, obviously had no spectators. So it was just the athletes, it was just their coaches and entourage. And the referees and officials, of which we were one, who were permitted entry. So that really was a special time. Wow.
Susan Ahern: As you’re describing disciplinary committees, and I’m thinking of all the disciplinary infractions in sport and the amount of tabloid headlines that even one will get, I think we’ll have to dedicate a whole podcast series to ethics and sports. But we’ll leave that for another day. Another thing I want to just get back to is when I speak with people who’ve had a lot of sports in their background, coaching and coaches come up time and time again. And I’ve heard about people seeking to have bosses who are like coaches because of that deep personal interest a coach has in your success. And I’d love to ask if there have been people in your life, whether they’re coaches or otherwise, that have had a pivotal role for you.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, clearly coaches do. When you’re on the field of play, you follow their pathway and you, you pretty much have to because if you don’t, you’re not going to make the team. But then you have the choices to be a member of that team or not. But in my working life, I would say I haven’t had a specific mentor or coach in my career path, but there have been a couple of people who I would call out as maybe changing the trajectory of my life. And I did mention before the president of Volleyball Ireland, a man called Aidan Curran, who, who was the man who tapped me on the shoulder way back when I was but a young lawyer, and started my sports administration career. So I look back on that, I suppose it’s more of a turning point than anything else. But the other individual that had a big influence on me was the Judicial Panel Chair of World Rugby, a man named Tim Gressom, who I did work with very closely for 15 years. And he was a former Crown Prosecutor in his home country and also a rugby referee, and for me, he was a great sounding board. Board, and I really did learn everything about rugby discipline from him, as well as getting insights from a criminal law perspective that I might not otherwise have had, and they have served me well in my tribunal and arbitration careers. And I think it would be remiss of me if I didn’t mention my husband, who has been a huge supporter in my career and in life, and we’ve been equal partners in that journey. And I think my career would not have been possible without his support.
Susan Ahern: Well, that’s lovely to say, and I’m sure he’s got some prime seats at some prime sporting events as well as part of the journey.
Aoifinn Devitt: So I guess there’s always a trade-off.
Susan Ahern: Indeed, always a trade-off. Well, my last question is around any creed or motto that you live by or any words of advice that you have maybe found to be important for you and your trajectory, or that you would have given your younger self perhaps. So a bunch of questions thrown in there, but really just getting around words of wisdom.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m not great with words of wisdom, and I was thinking about this, and actually what I came back to was I had an uncle who lived in the, in the United States, and who on a visit home when I was about 12 or 13, he brought me a poster of an athlete jumping a hurdle. Obviously I was a hurdler at that time, and that poster had a quote, and it was ‘Dream your dream, awake in action.’ And that poster resided on the inside of my wardrobe until I left home to go to college. And so when I meet a hurdle in my career, I think of that and it spurs me on. And I also think about it when I actually achieve something. So I think about it both positively, in a positive frame of mind, and also in a negative frame of mind. And I suppose I would say that I, I do see the world as a place of opportunity, and I do see life as a journey. It’s made up of many, many parts, and I consider that I have been really fortunate to have had 3 phases to my career so far, and I don’t believe I’m done yet.
Susan Ahern: Just thinking of those words of wisdom, sports really is the ultimate petri dish of life, so it’s no surprise that we get so many inspiring quotes from sports and from some of the players. So thank you so much, Susan. You’ve always been a wonderful teammate. I think we were on a moot court team at one point, as well as a team player. And I think you’re doing this now for the industry as a whole, being a wonderful team player, pushing forward the equity that we spoke about before, and being a wonderful role model for the generations coming behind. So thank you so much for coming here and sharing your insights with us.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you, Aoifinn. It’s been my pleasure.
Susan Ahern: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear from more inspiring lawyers and their stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
