Karen Killalea

Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast is brought to you with the kind support of The Maples Group. The Maples Group, through its leading international law firm Maples Calder, advises global financial, institutional, business, and private clients on the laws of the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, Ireland, Jersey, and Luxembourg. Maples Group firmly believes that embracing diversity and inclusion fosters a better culture of sound decision-making, leading to enhanced results and better all-around performance. Among other targeted strategies to promote diversity and inclusion, The Maples Group offers scholarship programs, employee training seminars, formal mentoring programs, extensive leadership development retreats, and ongoing professional coaching to attract, retain, and advance a diverse workforce, to promote equitable and inclusive workplace practices, and to foster both employee engagement and a positive working culture. Our next guest parlayed her diverse international experience, sometimes a white-knuckle ride, into a fascinating career in employment law. Find out from her about the transformation of this area into a staging ground for some of the most complex issues of our time. Around dignity, equity, and opportunity in the workplace. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Karen Killilay, who is a partner and head of employment at the Maples Group law firm in Ireland. Karen chairs the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Steering Group in Maples and Calder, and is part of the law firm’s management committee in Ireland. She has over 20 years of experience in advising international and domestic employers on Irish employment law, including in relation to labour law disputes, strikes, workplace investigations, whistleblowing, discrimination claims, pay claims, but also risk management practices, preparing employers for agile and flexible workplace demands, as well as the people aspects of transactions and change management. It’s not all about law and law firms and litigation though. Karen loves to be outdoors when not at the desk, and that could be trail running in the Dublin hills or further afield, playing tennis or sea swimming, and when weather and time permits, skiing or hiking in the Alps. Welcome, Karen. Thanks for joining me today.

Karen: Thanks, Aoifinn. I’m delighted to be here.

Aoifinn Devitt: Well, all of that description of your outdoor activities makes me just want to be doing some of that myself. So thanks for that imagery. But let’s start by talking about your background and career journey. Where were you born and what was your path to law? Sure.

Karen: So yeah, I was born in Dublin in Ireland, Aoifinn, as you know. And yeah, I had a fairly conventional upbringing, I guess. My parents were very, very focused on, on education and above everything else. That was sort of key as we were growing up. There was no question of not doing homework and not doing as well as you could do in exams and so forth. So they were very encouraging and it was, it was very positive. I went to high school or secondary school in Dublin also, and I was very fortunate. I went to a really good school, which is very strict. So we had a good bit of fun sort of pushing against that, or me maybe witnessing my friends pushing against it. I was always quite compliant and obedient, maybe too much so. I think maybe if I was to change one thing, I might change that— be a bit more of a rebel when I was younger. But apart from that, I mean, we had lots of sports, we had lots of extracurricular activity. When I think back on it now, I mean, this is kind of back in the ’80s, I’m revealing my age here, but we did certain things like media studies, and we did studied psychology and we had a transition year. So for non-Irish listeners or those who are not familiar with the Irish education system, that’s sort of an extra year of secondary school where you get to explore different activities and kind of understand better what you like and what you don’t like. So that was great and we had good teachers. I definitely remember a number of standout teachers from my high school, secondary school time that were just super encouraging and really interesting people and just good people who were generous and giving of their time. So Yeah, I mean, I think all in all a positive experience. I appreciate I’m extremely fortunate to be able to say that. And I guess from my own perspective, yeah, there are some standout adults in my early life that really had a huge impact on me and still have an impact on me to this day. So I guess my takeaway from all of that is you just got to be so careful with, with young people and be careful how you, you speak to them and encourage them. And what you say can potentially last a lifetime. So yeah, no, it was good, a.

Aoifinn Devitt: Straightforward background, but it Really interesting insights there, just in terms of remembering what is said to us. And I think we probably all remember exact phrases that were said to us in our teenage years and how much of an impact that can have. So that takes you through secondary school. Did you always think about choosing law? What was your pathway into law?

Karen: Yeah, I mean, it’s kind of funny to say it, but I actually did always have an interest in, in a career in law. I mean, I remember having a discussion with my mother about it, and really I was probably only about 10 or 11, which is kind of shocking. I wonder, does that show profound lack of imagination, but in some ways it made it like an easy choice for me. I think I was always interested in a career in law, and maybe that was to a certain extent driven by the fact that I sort of leaned into those subjects, the humanities subjects. I like debating, I like doing moot courts and all of that, but to be honest, I’m not sure that I had a really good understanding of what a career in law actually meant. But look, I kind of took it step by step, and it was, you know, it was tricky enough to actually study for a law degree back in the late ’80s, early ’90s. There were only a handful of universities that actually offered it, and, and the pathways weren’t necessarily as diverse as they are now. And it’s a good thing now that you can go and study something else and then maybe convert and take up law later. Like, that’s very positive. But back in the day, it was a little bit more linear, so it was difficult to get into a law degree. So that kind of focused me. I think that gave me good focus for the latter years of my secondary school. So I sort of put my head down because I very much wanted to do that. So I wound up then in Trinity College studying law, and that was really a terrific experience, a very new experience straight out from a very strict secondary school into just meeting people from very different backgrounds, different walks of life, and so forth. So, so it was, it was really great. But even before, I guess, even I thought long and hard about what sort of pathway within law that I would go. I think I knew within myself that I wanted to sort of experience a lot of different aspects of that. So I mean, even as an undergraduate, I think I definitely had an interest in taking a more international outlook on my career. I certainly didn’t consider for a moment staying in Ireland and qualifying immediately and working, and that was just a personal choice. Potentially also driven by the context at that time. Ireland was quite a different place at that time, economically probably a lot more depressed than it is now. It was a lot maybe less global in its outlook, and the opportunities didn’t seem to be as abundant as, as they subsequently were in the following decades after that. I mean, one of the highlights, and I’d say one of the pieces that really got me on a more international path, was doing Erasmus in third year from Trinity. So I went to France. That was definitely a game changer. But just reflecting on this and preparing to, to speak to you today, I was just trying to cast my mind back to being sort of 20 years of age and being determined to go and study in a European university. And the reality was actually my language skills weren’t amazing. And I remember speaking to the dean at the time of the law school and saying, I’ll go anywhere. He was saying, we can go to Germany, or you can go to Italy, or you can go to France. Do you speak any of languages. And my response was, never mind about that, that will sort itself out, which I think is kind of interesting. I’m not sure that I would be quite so bold and so resilient these days. But in any event, I did go off and I really enjoyed it, and it certainly widened my social circle and got to live in France for a year. And after a baptism of fire where I had absolutely hopeless French, I had to pretty quickly fix that. And then, I mean, as you will recall from university days as well, in those days we did a lot of traveling during the summer because we had to get jobs and it was not that easy to get jobs in Ireland. So had some great summer jobs in Canada, went to Japan, we had some time in Russia, we spent some time in Greece and all of that. So it does sort of make me think, I mean, I see fantastic graduates coming to interview for internships and traineeships and I’ve seen it across all my career. I mean, the caliber of graduates who come out now They’re just quite simply amazing. But it’s also good to do other stuff. I understand there’s pressure to do internships and so forth, and that’s great. It’s really good to do that, and it educates you as to your choices and whether or not a career in a particular firm or in a particular specialization might be interesting. But we have to do other stuff as well. And I feel that it’s good to have to live off your wits a little bit. And try different things and meet different people and go to different countries and struggle with the language and struggle with the bank accounts and struggle with the cultural differences. I, I don’t regret any of that. I don’t think any of that was time wasted. And your original question was, well, what was the pathway then into law? So in a nutshell, after I left college, I tried working for a U.S. Law firm for a while in Boston, which I really enjoyed. I went and did a master’s in Edinburgh, and that sort of had a focus on international doing the law, which I also really enjoyed. I moved to London and worked for a big city law firm for a while. So I definitely moved around, and I would say it probably took 5 or 6 or 7 years before— including my qualification in Ireland— before I sort of settled on what it was that I wanted to do. So I think in terms of what I would reflect on now as being valuable from all those experiences, I think you do have to go with your gut ultimately, whatever your instincts are. Do follow them. They are persuasive. They’re meaningful. Definitely get experience. Get variety. Do listen to others, but don’t listen to them too much. You do need to— as I say, you need to be able to live off your wits. You need to have a little bit of resilience. You need to try things. You definitely need to fail in things. So maybe don’t get sucked into endless internships and clerkships. For sure, you need to try them and you need to give it your best shot, but there’s lots of other stuff that you can do as well that will help you grow and help you to understand better what it is you want to do. So yeah, I think my pathway to law was definitely winding, and I got lost a few times, but I certainly don’t regret any of those experiences.

Aoifinn Devitt: Well, that’s a brilliant picture you painted there of the backdrop to our education, because we met, I think, shortly after you returned from Poitiers, and I remember just how much it featured in our conversations. It was clearly a formative year, and I do think that that’s a healthy reminder of just the importance of a diverse set of experiences in different fields. And you very much, I think, brought that to light here. So the international wanderlust didn’t stop there. You took it also into your practice of law and practiced law in Italy for a period. You mentioned already the US and the UK. I’m particularly interested in what it was like to work in Italy as a newly qualified lawyer. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Karen: Yeah, absolutely. And not surprisingly, it was absolutely terrific, and I would highly recommend it if you have the opportunity. Opportunity, or if any of the listeners have the opportunity to do it. So I had the great privilege to live in Rome, which is just the most fabulous city in the world. It’s a personal favorite of mine. But you would think that I would have learned after my Erasmus experience that it’s really not a good idea to throw yourself into a critical aspect of your degree or your career in circumstances where you don’t speak the language. And again, I had some Italian, but I, I think I had an exaggerated sense of my ability to actually work using Italian. So Again, I had a just white-knuckle ride maybe for the first 6 months. I worked for Linklaters in their capital markets, one of their capital markets team, worked with a great bunch of people doing really interesting work. And without wanting to mislead anybody, I just, I simply thought my Italian was better than it was, but it wasn’t. But it did become much, much better after about 6 months. So again, I sort of found myself in meetings trying to negotiate documents and not so much draft, but definitely negotiate and follow meetings through Italian, which was— looking back again, it was great. It it was, was another, I suppose, example of trying to live on your wits and to get by and not cave. So look, it was great. And I think, yeah, I mean, it is completely different to what I am doing now. As you know, I practice as an employment lawyer now. And there in Rome in the early 2000s, in the midst of the dot-com boom, I was working on an equity capital markets team. So we were preparing really interesting, successful Italian, mostly family businesses for IPO. And that was just really amazing. We got to go and meet with and speak to successful, innovative, well-established entrepreneurs in a lot of different industries, but particularly luxury goods and also tech. So I mean, for example, I had no idea how to read a set of financial statements before I joined the capital markets team, but by the end of it I certainly wasn’t going to carve a career out of that, and I had decided I’m probably not going to be a capital markets lawyer for the rest of my life. But I just absolutely enjoyed and relished that experience to get just a little bit more financial literacy, to understand how are businesses funded, how are they capitalized, what’s a successful strategy, what makes businesses successful, what are the failures. So look, it was just a brilliant experience, and I wasn’t practicing as an Italian lawyer, and I didn’t really seriously contemplate qualifying as an Italian lawyer, because I think at that stage I felt I had done enough exams, quite frankly. So I wasn’t thinking about doing that. And I also sort of felt, well, look, I’ve been on the road for nearly 10 years now, apart from my period in Dublin where I was qualifying. And we finally pulled the shutters down on the Italy experience and decided to move home after a few years there. But it was terrific. And as I say, another baptism of fire that helped me to self-guide back to probably what I really wanted to do, which was to go back to Dublin and to pick up where I’d left off doing a mixture of litigation and employment law. So back domestically doing what maybe I had set out to do several years before.

Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s move into the world of employment law now. What do you like most about it and how has it evolved over the course of your practicing it and any area that’s become more challenging perhaps or more on point in terms of what you’re getting asked to advise on?

Karen: Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s a really, really interesting area, and it is— it’s pretty much unrecognizable compared to how it was 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago when I qualified. And again, it’s like these kind of slightly serendipitous elements. I can’t really say why I, I really was taken by employment law, but I do recall that the partner that I first worked for was just a terrific boss. He was really down to earth. He was good buddy. He used to get a bit stressed but he was a decent human being and he was a good teacher and he gave me an awful lot of agency even as a newly qualified lawyer. And I really loved that. I loved being handed litigation or transactions and pretty much being told, off you go and do it. And of course there were mistakes, but when there were mistakes, what I really liked about that first boss that I worked for was he didn’t blame me, you know, he was in there to sort of support me and help me sort it out. And so, so I So that was actually quite important. I just, I liked the team. I liked the partner who was running that team. And as I say, above all, he was, he was a decent human being. So that’s how I started off there. But back then, even, I think it was just very different. It was very different to a lot of what I had done before. It was less transactional. There was a real human element to it. And so that was obviously appealing. I liked the fact that it wasn’t purely transactional and you were dealing with sort of real-life people problems, if you like. There was also a good opportunity to be an advocate and to do your own advocacy working as an employment lawyer back in the day. I mean, that is still the case, but the stakes sometimes can be a little bit higher now, and it may make sense to have a, a very experienced and expert advocate run your cases. But back then, again, I keep referring back to this surviving and thriving and living by your wits to try to get on. And being up before what was then known as the Employment Appeals Tribunal as a relatively newly qualified solicitor and sometimes up against barristers. Like, that was a good experience, it was a good learning experience, and there were knockbacks. And each case that you do, you would learn from it and you wouldn’t make a mistake again. So I just loved that, and I, I love the variety of the sort of advisory and the transactional and the advocacy and the litigation and so forth. But yeah, it’s definitely— just, just to pick up on part of your question there, look, it’s become much more challenging, it’s become much more complex, and I think there’s probably a few things that feed into that. So I think back 20+ years ago, it wasn’t really a discipline of law that you would describe as regulatory or sort of compliance-driven. It was largely about, I think, litigation and then documenting the employment relationship. But if you fast forward now a couple of decades, I think there is just so much legislation, there’s so much case law, there is a huge regulatory character to an employment law practice these days. And so there’s a constant learning, there’s a complexity, and all of that is great. I definitely, definitely relish that, and my team relishes that. We love to have the variety of complex advisory and transactional employment work. But there are definitely challenges, and it has become more challenging. I mean, first of all, I think the pandemic has had a really material influence on how workplaces operate and even on how workers now perform their work. And in some cases that’s positive, in some cases it’s negative. I definitely think during the pandemic, certainly most of the employers that we work with, they were good corporate citizens and a lot of flexibility was extended to employees. And equally, as far as we could see, certainly in our practice, employees really put their shoulder to the wheel and it worked well in the face of adversity. It really did. But I do think that I can see a pattern since the pandemic finished and since people have now moved into this sort of hybrid pattern of working, where perhaps the strains of that working structure over a period of 2 years or more, the uncertainty and so forth, has certainly created issues. So we are seeing a lot of employers who would have employees who are quite distressed, who are coping very well. There are performance issues, quite a lot of disputes, whistleblowing. That all sounds like it’s quite negative, and I’m not expressing a judgment on it, but I’m definitely seeing an enhanced volume of that type of work. I also think it’s very complex to be a manager these days. I think it’s really difficult to manage people. I think there’s been a recalibration and a resetting of the norms of appropriate behaviors in the workplace. Again, I’m not sort of expressing a judgment on that, but people can have very polarized views on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. And I do think it’s going to take some years for that to actually settle. I mean, by way of example, we have a number of codes of practice, for example, in Ireland, that help to guide employers and employees on how to have a dignified workplace, how to make sure that everybody enjoys dignity in the workplace. And yet we have an enormous amount of litigation in this exact area of law. And one of our key authorities in this area that is supposed to sort of guide practitioners and guide employers and guide employees about appropriate norms of behavior in workplaces— the case involved probably over the High Court, the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court, probably 7 or 8 different judges, and many of whom didn’t agree on what constituted bullying or what was a dignified workplace or what undermined your dignity in the workplace. So you have very learned and experienced and capable judges taking a set of facts and three different courts coming to three different conclusions on it. So what I mean by that is I think the workplace has become very complex. I think the practice of employment law by definition as a result has become quite complex. And I think the third piece that I would say, so in addition to the post-pandemic complexities, in addition to complexities of being a manager. I think as an employment lawyer as well, we are increasingly called upon to support clients in workplace investigations. And workplace investigations can be, again, tricky and sensitive, and you’ve got people’s livelihoods and their reputations on the line, and you’ve got businesses and sometimes the very viability of businesses on the line. So that’s a white-knuckle ride as well, I would describe that as. If you are appointed as an investigator, or if you are advising on an investigation, you to be super mindful of the human beings who are involved. And as I say, not only the sort of corporate entity, but the individuals and their livelihoods and their families and their reputations and so forth. Just over the weekend, I was taking a look at some of the reports coming out of the UK in relation to investigations, and I was kind of struck in relation to Dominic Raab. I think has had a lot to say over the weekend just in relation to to a report that was prepared in relation to sort of allegations of inappropriate conduct by him. And I was struck by his description of some of the complainants, so people who had complained about his conduct, as being activists. And I thought, that’s an interesting word. And I think it sort of underlines and helped me to define what I feel about workplaces these days, which is that they can become very polarized. So I’m sure from the employee’s perspective, they don’t regard themselves as activists. But the alleged perpetrator who’s on the receiving end of these type of complaints, which are very personal— and again, not expressing a judgment, I haven’t read the report, but I just thought it was an interesting example of how polarized these issues can be and how complex it is to try to adjudicate as between different types of human behavior. And then equally, you do see employment lawyers and law firms and senior counsel, King’s Counsel in the UK, being called in to investigate cases where there are very serious allegations that have been made. So again, the CBI in the UK has obviously been in the media quite a lot because of allegations of sexual harassment and allegations of sexual assault among some of its employees, involving employees. So that is a really, really difficult situation, and we have had those types of cases. We’ve had those types of cases where you have very serious allegations of criminal behaviour. And as an employment lawyer, you can be tasked with navigating that. That is such a sea change compared to 2 and a half decades ago, where I think some of these concepts were simply— they just simply didn’t fall within the bailiwick of an employer or within the context of the workplace relationship. So yeah, it’s definitely become a little bit more more challenging and complex, but all the more reason for us then to make sure that we’re constantly skilling in other areas as well. You need a good deal of, I think, empathy and emotional intelligence to deal with some of these issues. None of us is perfect, but at least we know what we don’t know, and we should certainly be making sure that we are getting guidance and training and that we are appropriately skilled to tackle these mandates on behalf of clients.

Aoifinn Devitt: So that’s absolutely fascinating as a description of really employment law as a staging ground for so many of the issues facing society today, whether it be in the bullying realm or around the MeToo movement. And equally, I think it creates the other interesting— I suppose the collateral damage to this is that some people’s career development won’t be the same as it has been in the past because some of their relationships won’t be as close perhaps or there may be a tendency for some of the more senior people to simply not engage. So I think it is a very vexed area, but you’ll have your door being beaten down with young graduates wanting to study it from your description here.

Karen: No, it’s a very good point that you make. It absolutely is a staging ground, and you’re absolutely bang on message with your second point about that sort of necessary distance now between perhaps senior and more junior members of teams, and everybody just being very careful not to overstep them are. Of course, we have to have appropriate levels of distance, and there has to be appropriate levels of behavior. But you’re right, there is that sort of intangible connection and bond that undoubtedly forms between colleagues, and that’s just become a hugely complex area. How friendly can you be? Are romantic relationships allowed anymore in, in the workplace? It’s— yeah, it’s a vexed area for Exactly.

Aoifinn Devitt: And we operate in high-stakes industries which are highly pressured and where performance is key. And I think there will always be an element of a thick skin that is necessary in certain fields. And how does one develop that thick skin is another key criteria we look at as we look at career development over the course of these podcasts. Well, one of the areas that I know comes up for you a lot and is getting a lot of headline attention right now too, it gets back to the diversity topic and the issue of, say, something like the gender pay gap. Gap, which again can be quite controversial because of the way it gets measured, or maybe what it says about an entity when they release it. There was recently an announcement of HSBC’s gender pay gap. What work do you do in that domain? And maybe we can segue this into a discussion of diversity in the law from your vantage point.

Karen: Yeah, sure. It’s a really interesting development, and we’ve certainly helped a number of clients more so in relation to preparing, I suppose, the narrative once they have the raw data and they’ve sliced and diced the raw data. And just to recap for anyone who isn’t familiar with the gender pay gap or the gender pay gap as it functions currently in Ireland. It’s in early stage in Ireland, and our legislation came into force like a couple of years ago. So it’s really next year that we’ll see most medium to large size employers having an obligation to report on their gender pay gap. And as many listeners may already know, gender pay gap is— it’s really, yeah, it’s about structural imbalances, I think, in, in the hierarchy of a business. It’s about trying to tackle that and shine a light on why there is a gender imbalance at particular categories of employees, and in particular at senior level. So it’s very helpful in terms of businesses understanding where they have emergency work to do on their pipeline, on their talent pipeline. So it’s not about equal pay for equal work— that’s been established for several decades at this stage— but it’s a really positive step My experience, I think, of it would be that there was a lot of apprehension about this, that it was going to be very burdensome and that it was going to be in effect almost like another sort of regulatory tax on businesses. That has not, in our experience, turned out to be the case. Yes, employers have worked hard. They’ve made sure that their data sets are accurate. They’ve taken the opportunity to sort of polish up their data sets in relation to fixed and variable remuneration.. And I think largely the gender pay gap reports that recently were published, so December of this year, I think this has been treated seriously by employers here. And while the gender pay gap itself in Ireland appears to be hovering around 14% and then shoots up to sort of 60% or more in, in some sectors, including in, in the legal sector, I think it has started a conversation. And in particular, it has started a conversation about pipeline. How do we get females into the pipeline? What do we need to do to change the norms that we have relied on to advance and promote people so that we are meeting women halfway or maybe more than halfway? And we’re not demanding, for example, in the legal profession where many of us sell units of time, how do how do you, you make that business appealing and viable for parents, not just for women but for parents. But typically that will normally impact women more than men. And so how do you do that? And gender pay gap has been really great in moving the dial on that conversation. But even to bring it a little bit further, I think there’s a pay transparency directive that’s coming down the tracks as well. It’s a European directive, and as we understand it, it’s likely to be come law probably in about 3 years’ time. And I think that is going to be even more helpful because that is going to start a conversation about the pay that everybody in the same category of worker actually earns. So it will move the dial, as I say, in terms of individual conversations and people talking and comparing and being able to have visibility on the basic pay, the fixed pay, and the variable pay that their colleagues are receiving. There will be a right to easily accessible information on the criteria for promotion and advancement. And in the recruitment process, there is going to be a requirement to publish the fixed and variable remuneration associated with the role. So as you can see very quickly, what that means is there’s going to be no further secrecy about bonus. And someone sitting next to me doing the exact same job as I did, contributing the same value, do they get a 40% bonus and I got So I think in addition to gender pay gap, pay transparency is going to be really interesting and is going to help that whole conversation about equity and inclusion and supporting, in particular supporting women and supporting those with caring responsibilities of any description to really compete on a level playing field. I think we’re trailing behind some of the states in the US in this regard. I think it’s already law in a number of states, so, but it’s, it’s certainly not in Ireland. So I think that’s going to be very interesting.

Aoifinn Devitt: Absolutely critical, I would think, to overcome some of the taboo as well around discussing salary, which still seems to be very much present, not just in Ireland but elsewhere. So if the transparency is there, I think that’s going to be a huge advantage, especially for women who traditionally have not negotiated as well at that offer stage as men, and certainly not progressed. And it’s a starting point that can really be so pivotal, not just the stages along the way.

Karen: Exactly.

Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s move to some personal reflections now, because with the description of the sense of adventure and outdoor activities, I know we’ve got lots to talk about here. And but first, before we get into that, so throughout the course of your career, have there been any high and low points that you can talk about?

Karen: Yeah, I mean, briefly enough, I think in terms of high points, I have to say I was promoted to partner just over a decade ago, and that was a really high point. It was a cause for celebration, and I, I felt it was a great achievement, and I had to thank, of course, all the people who supported me. So the partners in the firm I was in at the time, and family, and so forth. So that was a very happy moment for sure. Other high points, I think, done a couple of cases over the years, pro bono cases for NGOs, household names here in Ireland, who just had to navigate difficult times, difficult times on their corporate boards, issues with their donors, just existential threats. To their viability. So they were really great cases. I always find in NGOs and charitable bodies you get a lot of people who are very passionate about what they want to do, and sometimes that can be sort of a tinderbox, and you can just have difficulties, either interpersonal difficulties or existential issues. So I really enjoyed those cases. I think we managed in most of those cases to sort settle matters. And those organizations that we helped all those years ago have gone from strength to strength. So I do— I mean, I was part of a wider team. It wasn’t a personal achievement, but I was very happy to be involved in that, and I really enjoyed that. I think also people. I’ve had a lot of fun, a lot of laughter over the years. I still catch up with my original trainee group. We all joined our old firm a long time ago, like 25, 30 years ago. So we have fun, and we do— there’s a lot of laughter when we meet up. So I really enjoy that. People have been such an important part of my career and my work experience so far, and it’s just so important to maintain those networks and stay in touch and carve time out of the impossibly busy, busy day to stay in touch with friends and family and all of that. Other high points, I think— I mean, here at Maples, we’ve had some really interesting people under the DE&I banner, just really interesting and impressed people to come in and share their stories with us. A lot of people who’ve had personal challenges. We’ve been educated. I think we’ve been taught to be a little bit more sensitive, to engage and not to other colleagues. So that has been a high point for me personally. I’ve really enjoyed that and I feel that I’ve learned a lot and I’m still learning. And as chair of the DE&I steering group, like, I never consider myself to be an expert. I need to rely on people and colleagues within the constituencies that we’re trying to represent to teach us and to tell us and, and to vocalize what they want and to tell us how we can be the best allies we can be. So genuinely, I, I enjoy all of that, and it’s so different to the day job. I love it. So yeah, I guess they’re the high points. Not too many low points, even, thankfully. I mean, it hasn’t been a totally euphoric existence, but I genuinely struggle to think of any really low points. It’s tough coming back from maternity leave. That’s definitely a tough and kind of a confusing time. But I mean, what I tend to say— and I’ve been through it a few times and come back and survived it— and so what I always say to any of the associates, maybe on my team or other associates, I kind of say something that helped me was to just work through the first 6 months. And in 6 months in a law firm, you pretty much see everything. You see the good times, you see the bad times, you see the busy times, you see the slower times. There are periods of holiday, people leave, people join. And so I used to just say, look, give it 6 months and see how you feel. Don’t make any snap decisions. And a lot of people that I would have worked with, they really enjoyed their jobs, and there can be a very strong instinct to step off the carousel for a few years, particularly maybe after a first maternity leave. So you can’t obviously make decisions for others, but I hope I somewhat helpful in being able to share some of my experience. And yeah, they were tough times, but they were good times too. So yeah, I think that’s it really in terms of low points. Maybe I just have a magical ability to shut them out.

Aoifinn Devitt: Your very positive approach to life, I think, is probably what leads one to reduce those low points and see them as opportunities, or to live by one’s wits, or as a way to build resilience. So I think that’s no surprise at all that you would characterize them that way. You spoke earlier about key people in your childhood and early education, perhaps, and equally about some of your first bosses that were very motivational in terms of putting you on the right path. With any key people or mentor per se other than that— and this is not an exhaustive list, I always like.

Karen: To mention that— yeah, probably not a specific assigned mentor as such or sponsor, but there have been lots good people that I’ve worked with. So like I mentioned, my first boss, he was, he was great. I also worked for a partner who was, yeah, very supportive when I had a young family. And so in a firm that I worked in previously, I think I was the first partner to be appointed when I was still working part-time. And I suppose in some ways that’s great and what an achievement, but actually when I think about it, it was very much business as usual and there wasn’t much fanfare about it. And I certainly had to have the understanding and the trust of the people I worked with in order to do that. So I think there’s been an array of people who sort of let me get on with it, and that’s really important. I think, again, I keep beating this drum about living by your wits. I think we do have to trust the next generation. We have to support them, and we have to be there to step in immediately if there’s any issue and they need us to. But I do think we have to just hand over the reins and let people have those bruising experiences and survive them, but also let people from an early stage, particularly in law firms, you know, develop those client relationships and become the point person. And just trust your team. Trust your team. I trust my team. I was trusted when I was on a team, and that’s got to be a good thing. And then you have to have people’s backs. There’s no doubt about that. You can’t desert them then when it— if it all goes pear-shaped, which hopefully it wouldn’t. Apart from that, I mean, yeah, it’s— as I say, I don’t necessarily feel there’s nothing negative about not having a mentor or a sponsor. I think it’s important to understand that people support you. And if you get a sense that a person in an organization doesn’t support you, that you probably need to have a word with them and just try to find out what the issue is. But I think, yeah, a community of people even, I’m going to say, were supportive over the years, and that was.

Aoifinn Devitt: Hugely And before we move on to some words of wisdom, of which you’ve already given us many, getting back to those outdoor activities, because I know for me, for example, it’s a great source of anxiety reduction as well as just general well-being. So how do you see the role of the trail running, the skiing, all of this outdoor work? I know you live by the coast in Dublin. What role does that play in your holistic self?

Karen: Oh, it’s like indispensable. Yeah, it’s indispensable. I mean, and you— as am I allowed to give you a shout out for your fabulous Boston Marathon performance? I’m gonna just go ahead and give that shout out anyway. Aoifinn, you’re a force of nature, and well done. So there you go, live on air. You’re not allowed to edit that out. Um, so yeah, I mean, running is just brilliant for clearing the mind and just thinking about other things. Yeah, I mean, I can’t extol the virtues of it enough, and it kind of goes back to one of the things I mentioned earlier, which is just carving time out. Sometimes working in a law firm can potentially be presented as a type of endurance sport in itself. And yes, we work hard and we have to. Our clients rely on us to guide them and to get them out of sticky situations and to be correct and to be responsive. And I get all of that and I love that work. But we still, in order to be able to do that over the course of a very long career, it has to be sustainable. For me personally, in order to make that sustainable, I have to be able to get outside and do exercise. And I’m very, very fortunate that I don’t have injuries, I don’t have an impairment, so I can do that and I just need to do it. And if I’m not able to cycle or run or ski or whatever it is that I’m fortunate enough to be able to do, I don’t think I perform as well at work. So yeah, I’m in furious agreement with you. It’s— there’s no dispute or debate between us, it is critical. And then other people have other interests. People— I have a friend who’s a very, very talented musician, and that is her space. That’s where she goes and she recharges. She powers up by getting back into her choir and playing with her band and so forth. So everybody has their own gig, and they absolutely need to be given time to go off and do that, because that’s how you recharge, and that’s how you come back in refreshed and ready to face the day.

Aoifinn Devitt: Well, my last question then is around any words of advice that you’ve received that have made an impression on you, or any creed or motto that you live by. Is there anything you can share there?

Karen: Yeah, I mean, very briefly, I think the best piece of advice that I ever, ever received was from a senior counsel. So we were down in the Four Courts, which anybody who’s outside of Ireland, I’ll explain that. That’s sort of the big court in the center of Dublin. Very stressful case, and and a client said to our senior barrister, you know, just— I how do you cope with this day in, day out? This is just so stressful. How do you cope with it? And the senior counsel just said, I just— I never worry. I never get stressed. I just prepare. That’s all. And I thought, wow, that’s absolutely correct, because we do spend a lot of time squandering emotional energy thinking, am I going to look like an idiot when I say this? Is this correct? Am I going to get into trouble? But actually, it all just comes down to preparation. If you spend less time worrying and more time actually being prepared, the scope for things going wrong is very significantly narrowed. So I think I would say, don’t worry, just prepare, is probably the best piece of advice I’ve ever heard.

Aoifinn Devitt: That’s great advice. It ties to a piece of advice I always have, because then in my field I’m often asked to make predictions, and instead of making predictions, I usually demur from that. I’ll say, well, we prepare. We don’t predict, we prepare. So I think that is always a safe route. Well, thank you so much, Karen. This has been so enjoyable. I think I now need to go around all the alums of law of that time frame and have a similarly deep conversation, and I can only hope they would be as, as rich as this one. Thank you for taking us on a tour of the white-knuckle rides of your life, professionally and personally, and the empathy and warmth that you exude. Even your answer around extracurricular activities was inclusive in focusing on everyone having their own gig. So thank you for reminding us of that, for making the field of employment law so colorful and rich for us, and for sharing all your other abundant insights us.

Karen: Thank you, Aoifinn. It was a pleasure.

Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear from more inspiring lawyers and their stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.