Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast was made possible by the kind support of Emmanuel Arbib of IAM Capital, a global alternative investment group based in London, as well as the individuals, Alissa Bayer and Avatel Oyskild. Social challenges, innovation, human capital management, and the explosion of social impact bonds. Let’s hear how our next guest is helping to forge new frontiers. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond. I’m joined today by Naomi Krieger-Carmi, who is a senior VP at Social Finance Israel, an Israeli not-for-profit organization that issues social impact bonds. She has had a global career that has spanned roles in investment banking, economic development, and policy. Her most recent role prior to the current one was as VP and head of societal challenges division at the Israel Innovation Authority. Where she was responsible for policy, programs, and funding for R&D of impact tech and development of human capital for the innovation ecosystem. She has also been involved in the UK-Israel Tech Hub, a public-private venture to promote business and tech collaboration between the UK and Israel. Welcome, Naomi. Thank you for joining me today.
Naomi: Thank you for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Can we start with a little of a discussion of your own career journey, starting with what you studied at university and your time in the Israeli Army? Sure.
Naomi: So I was born in the US, as you might be able to hear from my accent, but have spent most of my life in Israel. My parents moved the family here when I was younger. And I initially went to study after mandatory military service, which is kind of a stop on the Israeli journey. I served in the intelligence corps and then went to study initially computer science and international relations, but realized quite early on that I was more interested in the business side of the tech world than in the actual tech development itself and switched into economics. Economics and International Relations and finished there and started my career post-university in the financial world. So I joined Lehman Brothers when there still was a Lehman Brothers and worked in a very exciting period for investment banking and for the tech industry, moved with them to New York and spent a lot of time working on IPOs, mergers, acquisitions for a lot of tech companies, both from Israel and globally. Ultimately, though, felt that while the work was challenging and interesting, it wasn’t really where, where my heart wanted me to be. In terms of having more impact on the world from a social and a public benefit perspective. So I went back to school, got a master’s from the Kennedy School at Harvard in public policy with a focus on economic development and public-private sector relations, and then came back to Israel. And what I’ve been doing in the past 13 years since I’ve been back have been roles on the intersection between business, tech, policy, and social impact. So I ran a not-for-profit in the employment space. I helped to set up and run UK-Israel Tech Hub, which was about promoting technological and, and business cooperation between the two countries. And then I joined Israel’s national body for, for promoting the technology sector, which is the Israel Innovation Authority, to set up a new division called Societal Challenges. So looking both at how technology itself can help address some of the big societal challenges we face in education and health and welfare, and then also looking at who’s working in the innovation industry and how can we broaden that pipeline and diversify it. And just 2 months ago, I began a new role at Social Finance Israel. Very excited about this. Social Finance Israel is part of a network of organizations, including Social Finance UK, US, India, and Netherlands. And the idea is about how do we get private capital to target social challenges in a smart way by using innovative financing tools and innovative social models such as social impact bonds and other such tools. Just on a personal note, I live in Tel Aviv in Israel. I’m married and I have 3 small boys. That’s it. Delighted to be here.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much. I’d love to ask you a little bit just before we talk about Social Finance Israel in more detail, just going back to some of these societal challenges that you mentioned, how would you characterize some of the societal challenges of the tech industry and how are they being addressed?
Naomi: Well, I think that there are challenges within the industry itself, and then there are challenges that society faces at large that the industry can play a part in addressing. So I think within the technology industry, a lot of it is about who is in this industry and who’s benefiting from the great challenges, career development, and quite frankly, money that it has to offer. And what we see in Israel, very similarly to other advanced economies, is that the tech industry is still between two-thirds and three-quarters 2/3 to 3/4 male, that minorities are underrepresented, that people from a more disadvantaged background socially, economically have a hard time getting their way in. And that’s a huge shame because this industry, it could be one of the great equalizers. So once people do make their way in, it actually, there’s tremendous mobility and it’s really a world based on talent and ability and not on connections or other assets that people bring from before. So, so that’s kind of one aspect of it. And we’ve you looked, know, in my previous role, looked a lot at what are the ways to expand the pathways into tech for more diverse people and including just more different kinds of backgrounds. There’s a lot of, there are a lot of stereotypes involved in tech and kind of it’s, it’s just for one type of person. And then that’s really not the case. And then looking more broadly as a global society, we face huge challenges today in providing health to everyone, certainly in the current time, you know, with the the COVID-19 reality, in providing education services, in providing food, quite frankly, food security is still an issue in so many countries and for so many people. And in all of these, innovation and technology can be harnessed to create some of the solutions. I think we’ve seen it really, the current time has shown some of that, for example, in telemedicine and remote health solutions when people can’t leave their homes or when they’re living far away. Education has had to move online to a large degree, you know, and the more we can be innovative about that, not just, you know, streaming the same class over Zoom, but learning in new ways and in different ways, you know, then everyone can benefit. So, so those are just a few examples about how innovation can help address some of the big challenges of society.
Aoifinn Devitt: So part of the societal challenges I understand is human capital management, a huge part of that. What insights did you gain on how to get better gender balance in management roles?
Naomi: I want to actually take, if it’s okay with you, take a step back and broaden that question a little bit, because I think the management roles are really the tip of the pyramid and we need to look at kind of what’s happening all the way through. And I think that we’re very lucky in most advanced economies that girls and women really have the same opportunities to access education, to access higher education, to access the job market. So I don’t think, you know, I think we’ve really moved beyond a situation that unfortunately is still the case in many developing countries where women and girls don’t have that same access to opportunities. And then we really need to ask ourselves, well, then why is it, you know, why are we still stuck at between, you know, 25% of women in pure technology roles or maybe about a third of women in the tech industry at large, including other roles such as, you know, marketing and sales and things like that. And there’s not one answer to it. I think there still are a certain biases in the way that girls and women are steered more towards some professions, encouraged more towards others. But one of the discoveries that I found, and which was really interesting, was some work that had been done at Stanford University a few years back when they set themselves a goal to reach parity in women and men in the computer science undergraduate program. And they had been quite far off from that. And what they found was, you know, so obviously it’s not that the women were less talented or have the didn’t right skills, but two areas that really seemed to have an impact. One was they changed the setup of the studies. They found that the way that the material was being taught and the way that the classes were being run spoke—generalizing, of course—but spoke largely more to men than to women, in the sense that it was a very competitive program. It was all about kind of, you know, students competing against each other to reach the top, and then the ones who weren’t good enough being screened out. This can be very motivating for some people, women and men, but largely it spoke spoke to more men, whereas when they experimented with changing the setup of studies to be much more collaborative, much more based on teamwork, much more based on helping each other instead of competing against each other, they found that this spoke to more women and helped more women kind of stay the course and graduate again without changing the standard of the studies or the content. So that was one really interesting insight. And I think that resonates with a lot of women in terms of the way they like to interact in the world. Another change was looking at kind of the content of tech. And again, generalizing, each individual is different, but overall, a lot of men are attracted to tech for kind of the pure analytical challenge of it, you know, solving the mathematical problems, writing, cracking the code. Whereas many women are more interested in, they’re interested in those same intellectual challenges, but they’re also very interested in what the technology is going to do. What problems is it going to solve? Which issues is it going to improve in the world? And you see a lot more women being drawn to interdisciplinary fields where technology is paired with another field, life sciences being a very clear example, education technology, computer science with psychology. So looking at, you know, how to use the technology to address issues that some women care strongly about was also a big drawing factor. And then, you know, on top of that, of course, I say of course, because I think that we’ve heard this a lot already, you know, putting the right role models in front, making sure that the teaching staff had women as well as men. All of those issues are really important as well. But I’ve seen in the tech world that for a lot of women, the how you work and what you’re working for are two questions that are very important to them.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s so interesting. Do you think there are ways that some of those techniques used at Stanford could be incorporated into the workplace? Similar types of reframing perhaps, or thinking about how groups work together, how incentives are structured?
Naomi: Absolutely. I mean, I think that it’s definitely something to look at in terms of how companies work. We hear a lot about that in terms of management styles, but also, it’s it doesn’t only relate to managers, it relates to the entire way up. And then I think it’s also about a personal choice of which company to work for. Now I’m taking part in a really great project mentoring women in tech. And, you know, I found it really striking that a lot of the women who’ve approached me to do a mentoring session are kind of having these existential questions about whether they should leave the tech world and go, you know, do something for social good, go work for a not-for-profit or something like that. And what has come out of a lot of the conversations is that they don’t need to throw away a profession and skills and talents that they’ve developed and that they love, but you maybe, know, instead of working for a company that develops I don’t know, I’ll take an extreme example, online gambling solutions, go work for a company that develops education technology solutions, you know, put your talents to use for an issue that you believe in. And I think that that’s also, and you do see, you know, when you look at kind of tech companies, you see a lot more women in the fields that we, that we would broadly classify as impact technology, you know, having, having a positive social impact. And so I think it’s both about changing or looking at what we can bring into the workplace at all companies, and then also about individuals finding the way to work on the issues that they like, but using the skills that that they, they have as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: So interesting because there’s such a parallel. So the words you’re using here around outcome focus, impact, purpose, that actually aligns quite well with the way a lot of the way investing is trending, my world, the world of investing and financial services. I’d love to take this opportunity now to pivot to your role at Social Finance Israel. Can you talk a little bit about the social impact bonds that you issue, how they’re backed, how metrics and outcomes are measured?
Naomi: Sure. So a social impact bond, it’s an innovative financial tool that was developed in a pilot first in the UK by Sir Ronald Cohen and then developed both in the UK and here in Israel by Social Finance Israel. And what it basically is, is a contract between very different stakeholders that at the heart of it is looking to address a social issue where we can measure the results and where we can use private capital to help smooth the way. So how does that work? I’ll give an example of one of our social impact bonds. It’s about improving mathematical skills and outcomes on mathematics tests for high school students among the Bedouin community in the south of Israel. So in this case, the Ministry of Education is what we call the outcome payer. So they’re the one who really wants to see this result at the end. They want to see an improvement in test scores for this population. But because it’s an experimental program and they don’t know yet if it will work and it’s a pilot, that it’s hard for them often to just kick off something like that on their own. So that’s where social finance comes in, raising capital from private investors, from impact investors, identifying the right kind of model for change and the right organization to implement that. In this case, it’s an NGO that’s going in and training teachers and bringing new methodologies and really looking at all the pieces that need to work in this puzzle. Just for an example, again, during COVID that included running around to try to deliver computers to the homes of students that didn’t have computers at home, you know, so, so really being creative about everything that it takes to address the issue. And building a very rigorous measurement structure where we can say, what are the outcomes that we want to achieve? It’s not just one outcome. It’s not just the end goal of, you know, achieving a high score on a test, but there are a lot of outcomes along the way, completing the program, attending the classes, improvement in skills. And then the end goal is you really, know, completing the matriculation or other tests with the right scores. And the way that the contract is structured is that if the social intervention works and the outcomes are reached, then the government pays for those outcomes, and that money goes back to the investors. So it’s kind of a three-way contract where everyone is incentivized to reach the same goals. Everyone wants the project to succeed. The NGO gets paid with a very strong pay for success element. The investor’s return is both financial, but it’s also linked to the social outcomes. And the government only pays for results and has a lot more flexibility than government usually has in, in the way that they’re running a project because they’ve bought an outcome and not a service. So it’s a little bit complicated. It takes an organization to really be able to structure and manage all of these pieces, but it’s brilliant because it really transforms the way that social services can be delivered. It allows to bring in a lot of new capital from the private sector to issues like this.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s funny, just, I’m an article just popped into my email this morning, which says pandemic booster shot for social bonds, basically suggesting that social bond issuance and demand has rocketed in reaction to the pandemic. I would imagine there are broader issues than that. There’s also just a real surge in interest in impact investing, in sustainability more generally. Are you seeing an increase in demand and a more I sophisticated, suppose, type of demand, basically investors who are quite specific about the kind of impact they’re seeking?
Naomi: Yes, absolutely. So Social Finance Israel really started around the area of social impact bonds, but now we’ve expanded to deal with a lot of other issues. So one of the issues, for example, that I’m focusing on is a new tool called a Career Impact Bond, which was piloted by our sister organization in the US, Social Finance US. And the idea here is a new structure that can allow people to build the professional skills they need and to find their way into the workplace when they don’t always have the money to invest in themselves. And the way that it works is by structuring loans that are income-based. A person can get a loan to fund not only studies or vocational training, but everything around it that’s needed. Sometimes that’s a living stipend, sometimes that’s money for other expenses, childcare, transportation, etc. And all this is once again funded by investors. From the individual’s perspective, the risk is greatly reduced because they don’t have to pay back unless they have a job above a certain threshold. The fear of taking on debt that I might not be able to repay is really eliminated, and that And that’s a huge game changer. But what it does from a public perspective is instead of giving out grants or funding all these things takes a huge amount of money, quite frankly. And here with the private capital can be recycled because the people do pay back the loans eventually. And you can also use, so there’s a lot of interest also in developing models like this with what we call blended finance. So maybe there is some government money or some donor money in there, but you can leverage that in a very smart way with a lot of private capital that goes back to investors to impact a lot of people. So we see a huge amount of interest in this because governments have spent a huge amount of money on the crisis and they’re looking for more efficient ways to deliver services. I think a lot of investors and individuals have really seen that they have a role to play as well in addressing some of these big issues. And it’s really everyone, you touched know, Everyone knows someone who’s lost a job, who’s lost someone dear to them. And so I think it’s really, as you say, it’s created a huge opportunity for the impact investing world, for the impact world at large. We’re working very hard to try to seize that opportunity and a lot of other individuals and organizations are as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: Now, it’s so interesting. It really is a new frontier of finance and yet it has a very different feel this time because of the integration, I think, and the reflection back on the impact on society. So much innovation there. It’s fantastic to see. Just wanted to circle back for a few short questions back to your own personal story. Were there any key people who influenced you in your career or in life so far?
Naomi: Absolutely. A lot of people. I think that, you know, one of the people that I was really privileged to work with was a man called Harvey Krueger. He passed away not too long ago. He was a vice chairman at Lehman Brothers. We always joked that, you know, we might be distantly related because the Krieger and Kruger, but we never quite cracked what the relation was, but it definitely felt like family. And I learned so much from him professionally. One of the things that he was particularly skilled at was just kind of throwing people off the deep end and letting them swim. And I’ve, you know, I’ve tried to, as a manager, to do that, you know, to learn from him because it wasn’t really just throwing people off the deep end and, you know, leaving them to flounder, but it certainly was finding the right balance between, you know, not sheltering people from the experiences that they need to shape their career, and then also making sure that it is a teaching opportunity that you can come back and debrief and learn afterwards. But the other thing that I also always remember for him, I used to come in later years sometimes to visit him at the office and catch up. And when I would say who I— tell the security guard downstairs who I was coming to see, His response was without fail, Harvey Krueger, the nicest man in the building. And, you know, to have someone who’s so senior and yet really sees everyone from the man standing at the door when he walks in, knows them, knows their name, takes an interest in them, that was also a kind of a huge lesson that I take with me and don’t take for granted.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s really wonderful. Looking now at sort of senior people like that, or just with legendary people like that, has there been any advice that you’ve heard over the years is there any creed or motto that you live by?
Naomi: I really believe in following your own path in the sense of not trying too hard to construct a story that makes sense or taking a job that you think is the right thing for you to do, but really to follow your heart in terms of where your passion lies. And I always joke that it was only when I sat down to write my applications for grad school that I managed to invent a story that somehow tied together all of the unrelated things that I had done in my life until then and made it seem like there was a lot of reason and rationale behind it. And so I think that’s true. And then I think it also, I remember once I have an uncle who’s very dear to me. And I once sent him a link to an article that had been published about a big project that I had been involved in. And I said, you know, it’s a great article, but they didn’t mention me at all. You would never know that this was my project. He said to me, you know, the work itself needs to be its own reward. And that’s very true. And, you know, it’s hard to remember sometimes. We all have egos and we all love to see our name attached to things. But I think that the real satisfaction needs to be from the impact that we had, things that we managed to build. And so I repeat that to myself every time there’s an article that doesn’t mention my name.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, we’re definitely going to mention you here on this podcast. But finally, Any advice you might have for your younger self? Anything, any gems of wisdom you wish you had known a little earlier?
Naomi: I always debate on this one because on one hand I look back and I say, well, why did I take myself so seriously? You know, why did I, why was I, you know, working so hard and then not just having more fun? And at times I would say to my younger self, you know, just relax and have more fun along the way. Not that, you know, I had fun, but I was quite driven about goals that I wanted to achieve and things I wanted to do. But then I also, in a way, I still don’t completely buy that advice. I mean, I think definitely life is to enjoy, but I also think there’s a certain magic about being young and being so passionate about things that it’s actually the time to go all you in, know, and you don’t have other commitments and you don’t have other things distracting you. And if there’s something you’re passionate about, that you’re really passionate about, not you because, know, a teacher said or a parent said, but that you really love, then yes, know, you do it. Sit all night reading about an area that you’re passionate about because you won’t have that time later and you won’t even maybe have that drive later. So I really, that would be my advice to people, you know, find the thing that you love, even if it doesn’t seem at this point that it’s leading you anywhere on a career journey and immerse yourself in it.
Aoifinn Devitt: Those are wonderful pieces of advice. I agree with you. I was an attorney in New York in my early 20s and definitely that is the time to work those kind of hours. And I think I knew it then too. It was such, so wonderful to have our conversation. I really wanted to, I’m so delighted to hear there are people like you at the, really in these groundbreaking areas of social impact. As I said, it is a new frontier and thank you for bringing the discipline and the innovation that you are to it. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Naomi: That’s very kind and it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Me.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast was made possible by the kind support of Emmanuel Arbib of IAM Capital, a global alternative investment group based in London, as well as the individuals, Alissa Bayer and Avatel Oyskild. Social challenges, innovation, human capital management, and the explosion of social impact bonds. Let’s hear how our next guest is helping to forge new frontiers. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond. I’m joined today by Naomi Krieger-Carmi, who is a senior VP at Social Finance Israel, an Israeli not-for-profit organization that issues social impact bonds. She has had a global career that has spanned roles in investment banking, economic development, and policy. Her most recent role prior to the current one was as VP and head of societal challenges division at the Israel Innovation Authority. Where she was responsible for policy, programs, and funding for R&D of impact tech and development of human capital for the innovation ecosystem. She has also been involved in the UK-Israel Tech Hub, a public-private venture to promote business and tech collaboration between the UK and Israel. Welcome, Naomi. Thank you for joining me today.
Naomi: Thank you for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Can we start with a little of a discussion of your own career journey, starting with what you studied at university and your time in the Israeli Army? Sure.
Naomi: So I was born in the US, as you might be able to hear from my accent, but have spent most of my life in Israel. My parents moved the family here when I was younger. And I initially went to study after mandatory military service, which is kind of a stop on the Israeli journey. I served in the intelligence corps and then went to study initially computer science and international relations, but realized quite early on that I was more interested in the business side of the tech world than in the actual tech development itself and switched into economics. Economics and International Relations and finished there and started my career post-university in the financial world. So I joined Lehman Brothers when there still was a Lehman Brothers and worked in a very exciting period for investment banking and for the tech industry, moved with them to New York and spent a lot of time working on IPOs, mergers, acquisitions for a lot of tech companies, both from Israel and globally. Ultimately, though, felt that while the work was challenging and interesting, it wasn’t really where, where my heart wanted me to be. In terms of having more impact on the world from a social and a public benefit perspective. So I went back to school, got a master’s from the Kennedy School at Harvard in public policy with a focus on economic development and public-private sector relations, and then came back to Israel. And what I’ve been doing in the past 13 years since I’ve been back have been roles on the intersection between business, tech, policy, and social impact. So I ran a not-for-profit in the employment space. I helped to set up and run UK-Israel Tech Hub, which was about promoting technological and, and business cooperation between the two countries. And then I joined Israel’s national body for, for promoting the technology sector, which is the Israel Innovation Authority, to set up a new division called Societal Challenges. So looking both at how technology itself can help address some of the big societal challenges we face in education and health and welfare, and then also looking at who’s working in the innovation industry and how can we broaden that pipeline and diversify it. And just 2 months ago, I began a new role at Social Finance Israel. Very excited about this. Social Finance Israel is part of a network of organizations, including Social Finance UK, US, India, and Netherlands. And the idea is about how do we get private capital to target social challenges in a smart way by using innovative financing tools and innovative social models such as social impact bonds and other such tools. Just on a personal note, I live in Tel Aviv in Israel. I’m married and I have 3 small boys. That’s it. Delighted to be here.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much. I’d love to ask you a little bit just before we talk about Social Finance Israel in more detail, just going back to some of these societal challenges that you mentioned, how would you characterize some of the societal challenges of the tech industry and how are they being addressed?
Naomi: Well, I think that there are challenges within the industry itself, and then there are challenges that society faces at large that the industry can play a part in addressing. So I think within the technology industry, a lot of it is about who is in this industry and who’s benefiting from the great challenges, career development, and quite frankly, money that it has to offer. And what we see in Israel, very similarly to other advanced economies, is that the tech industry is still between two-thirds and three-quarters 2/3 to 3/4 male, that minorities are underrepresented, that people from a more disadvantaged background socially, economically have a hard time getting their way in. And that’s a huge shame because this industry, it could be one of the great equalizers. So once people do make their way in, it actually, there’s tremendous mobility and it’s really a world based on talent and ability and not on connections or other assets that people bring from before. So, so that’s kind of one aspect of it. And we’ve you looked, know, in my previous role, looked a lot at what are the ways to expand the pathways into tech for more diverse people and including just more different kinds of backgrounds. There’s a lot of, there are a lot of stereotypes involved in tech and kind of it’s, it’s just for one type of person. And then that’s really not the case. And then looking more broadly as a global society, we face huge challenges today in providing health to everyone, certainly in the current time, you know, with the the COVID-19 reality, in providing education services, in providing food, quite frankly, food security is still an issue in so many countries and for so many people. And in all of these, innovation and technology can be harnessed to create some of the solutions. I think we’ve seen it really, the current time has shown some of that, for example, in telemedicine and remote health solutions when people can’t leave their homes or when they’re living far away. Education has had to move online to a large degree, you know, and the more we can be innovative about that, not just, you know, streaming the same class over Zoom, but learning in new ways and in different ways, you know, then everyone can benefit. So, so those are just a few examples about how innovation can help address some of the big challenges of society.
Aoifinn Devitt: So part of the societal challenges I understand is human capital management, a huge part of that. What insights did you gain on how to get better gender balance in management roles?
Naomi: I want to actually take, if it’s okay with you, take a step back and broaden that question a little bit, because I think the management roles are really the tip of the pyramid and we need to look at kind of what’s happening all the way through. And I think that we’re very lucky in most advanced economies that girls and women really have the same opportunities to access education, to access higher education, to access the job market. So I don’t think, you know, I think we’ve really moved beyond a situation that unfortunately is still the case in many developing countries where women and girls don’t have that same access to opportunities. And then we really need to ask ourselves, well, then why is it, you know, why are we still stuck at between, you know, 25% of women in pure technology roles or maybe about a third of women in the tech industry at large, including other roles such as, you know, marketing and sales and things like that. And there’s not one answer to it. I think there still are a certain biases in the way that girls and women are steered more towards some professions, encouraged more towards others. But one of the discoveries that I found, and which was really interesting, was some work that had been done at Stanford University a few years back when they set themselves a goal to reach parity in women and men in the computer science undergraduate program. And they had been quite far off from that. And what they found was, you know, so obviously it’s not that the women were less talented or have the didn’t right skills, but two areas that really seemed to have an impact. One was they changed the setup of the studies. They found that the way that the material was being taught and the way that the classes were being run spoke—generalizing, of course—but spoke largely more to men than to women, in the sense that it was a very competitive program. It was all about kind of, you know, students competing against each other to reach the top, and then the ones who weren’t good enough being screened out. This can be very motivating for some people, women and men, but largely it spoke spoke to more men, whereas when they experimented with changing the setup of studies to be much more collaborative, much more based on teamwork, much more based on helping each other instead of competing against each other, they found that this spoke to more women and helped more women kind of stay the course and graduate again without changing the standard of the studies or the content. So that was one really interesting insight. And I think that resonates with a lot of women in terms of the way they like to interact in the world. Another change was looking at kind of the content of tech. And again, generalizing, each individual is different, but overall, a lot of men are attracted to tech for kind of the pure analytical challenge of it, you know, solving the mathematical problems, writing, cracking the code. Whereas many women are more interested in, they’re interested in those same intellectual challenges, but they’re also very interested in what the technology is going to do. What problems is it going to solve? Which issues is it going to improve in the world? And you see a lot more women being drawn to interdisciplinary fields where technology is paired with another field, life sciences being a very clear example, education technology, computer science with psychology. So looking at, you know, how to use the technology to address issues that some women care strongly about was also a big drawing factor. And then, you know, on top of that, of course, I say of course, because I think that we’ve heard this a lot already, you know, putting the right role models in front, making sure that the teaching staff had women as well as men. All of those issues are really important as well. But I’ve seen in the tech world that for a lot of women, the how you work and what you’re working for are two questions that are very important to them.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s so interesting. Do you think there are ways that some of those techniques used at Stanford could be incorporated into the workplace? Similar types of reframing perhaps, or thinking about how groups work together, how incentives are structured?
Naomi: Absolutely. I mean, I think that it’s definitely something to look at in terms of how companies work. We hear a lot about that in terms of management styles, but also, it’s it doesn’t only relate to managers, it relates to the entire way up. And then I think it’s also about a personal choice of which company to work for. Now I’m taking part in a really great project mentoring women in tech. And, you know, I found it really striking that a lot of the women who’ve approached me to do a mentoring session are kind of having these existential questions about whether they should leave the tech world and go, you know, do something for social good, go work for a not-for-profit or something like that. And what has come out of a lot of the conversations is that they don’t need to throw away a profession and skills and talents that they’ve developed and that they love, but you maybe, know, instead of working for a company that develops I don’t know, I’ll take an extreme example, online gambling solutions, go work for a company that develops education technology solutions, you know, put your talents to use for an issue that you believe in. And I think that that’s also, and you do see, you know, when you look at kind of tech companies, you see a lot more women in the fields that we, that we would broadly classify as impact technology, you know, having, having a positive social impact. And so I think it’s both about changing or looking at what we can bring into the workplace at all companies, and then also about individuals finding the way to work on the issues that they like, but using the skills that that they, they have as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: So interesting because there’s such a parallel. So the words you’re using here around outcome focus, impact, purpose, that actually aligns quite well with the way a lot of the way investing is trending, my world, the world of investing and financial services. I’d love to take this opportunity now to pivot to your role at Social Finance Israel. Can you talk a little bit about the social impact bonds that you issue, how they’re backed, how metrics and outcomes are measured?
Naomi: Sure. So a social impact bond, it’s an innovative financial tool that was developed in a pilot first in the UK by Sir Ronald Cohen and then developed both in the UK and here in Israel by Social Finance Israel. And what it basically is, is a contract between very different stakeholders that at the heart of it is looking to address a social issue where we can measure the results and where we can use private capital to help smooth the way. So how does that work? I’ll give an example of one of our social impact bonds. It’s about improving mathematical skills and outcomes on mathematics tests for high school students among the Bedouin community in the south of Israel. So in this case, the Ministry of Education is what we call the outcome payer. So they’re the one who really wants to see this result at the end. They want to see an improvement in test scores for this population. But because it’s an experimental program and they don’t know yet if it will work and it’s a pilot, that it’s hard for them often to just kick off something like that on their own. So that’s where social finance comes in, raising capital from private investors, from impact investors, identifying the right kind of model for change and the right organization to implement that. In this case, it’s an NGO that’s going in and training teachers and bringing new methodologies and really looking at all the pieces that need to work in this puzzle. Just for an example, again, during COVID that included running around to try to deliver computers to the homes of students that didn’t have computers at home, you know, so, so really being creative about everything that it takes to address the issue. And building a very rigorous measurement structure where we can say, what are the outcomes that we want to achieve? It’s not just one outcome. It’s not just the end goal of, you know, achieving a high score on a test, but there are a lot of outcomes along the way, completing the program, attending the classes, improvement in skills. And then the end goal is you really, know, completing the matriculation or other tests with the right scores. And the way that the contract is structured is that if the social intervention works and the outcomes are reached, then the government pays for those outcomes, and that money goes back to the investors. So it’s kind of a three-way contract where everyone is incentivized to reach the same goals. Everyone wants the project to succeed. The NGO gets paid with a very strong pay for success element. The investor’s return is both financial, but it’s also linked to the social outcomes. And the government only pays for results and has a lot more flexibility than government usually has in, in the way that they’re running a project because they’ve bought an outcome and not a service. So it’s a little bit complicated. It takes an organization to really be able to structure and manage all of these pieces, but it’s brilliant because it really transforms the way that social services can be delivered. It allows to bring in a lot of new capital from the private sector to issues like this.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s funny, just, I’m an article just popped into my email this morning, which says pandemic booster shot for social bonds, basically suggesting that social bond issuance and demand has rocketed in reaction to the pandemic. I would imagine there are broader issues than that. There’s also just a real surge in interest in impact investing, in sustainability more generally. Are you seeing an increase in demand and a more I sophisticated, suppose, type of demand, basically investors who are quite specific about the kind of impact they’re seeking?
Naomi: Yes, absolutely. So Social Finance Israel really started around the area of social impact bonds, but now we’ve expanded to deal with a lot of other issues. So one of the issues, for example, that I’m focusing on is a new tool called a Career Impact Bond, which was piloted by our sister organization in the US, Social Finance US. And the idea here is a new structure that can allow people to build the professional skills they need and to find their way into the workplace when they don’t always have the money to invest in themselves. And the way that it works is by structuring loans that are income-based. A person can get a loan to fund not only studies or vocational training, but everything around it that’s needed. Sometimes that’s a living stipend, sometimes that’s money for other expenses, childcare, transportation, etc. And all this is once again funded by investors. From the individual’s perspective, the risk is greatly reduced because they don’t have to pay back unless they have a job above a certain threshold. The fear of taking on debt that I might not be able to repay is really eliminated, and that And that’s a huge game changer. But what it does from a public perspective is instead of giving out grants or funding all these things takes a huge amount of money, quite frankly. And here with the private capital can be recycled because the people do pay back the loans eventually. And you can also use, so there’s a lot of interest also in developing models like this with what we call blended finance. So maybe there is some government money or some donor money in there, but you can leverage that in a very smart way with a lot of private capital that goes back to investors to impact a lot of people. So we see a huge amount of interest in this because governments have spent a huge amount of money on the crisis and they’re looking for more efficient ways to deliver services. I think a lot of investors and individuals have really seen that they have a role to play as well in addressing some of these big issues. And it’s really everyone, you touched know, Everyone knows someone who’s lost a job, who’s lost someone dear to them. And so I think it’s really, as you say, it’s created a huge opportunity for the impact investing world, for the impact world at large. We’re working very hard to try to seize that opportunity and a lot of other individuals and organizations are as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: Now, it’s so interesting. It really is a new frontier of finance and yet it has a very different feel this time because of the integration, I think, and the reflection back on the impact on society. So much innovation there. It’s fantastic to see. Just wanted to circle back for a few short questions back to your own personal story. Were there any key people who influenced you in your career or in life so far?
Naomi: Absolutely. A lot of people. I think that, you know, one of the people that I was really privileged to work with was a man called Harvey Krueger. He passed away not too long ago. He was a vice chairman at Lehman Brothers. We always joked that, you know, we might be distantly related because the Krieger and Kruger, but we never quite cracked what the relation was, but it definitely felt like family. And I learned so much from him professionally. One of the things that he was particularly skilled at was just kind of throwing people off the deep end and letting them swim. And I’ve, you know, I’ve tried to, as a manager, to do that, you know, to learn from him because it wasn’t really just throwing people off the deep end and, you know, leaving them to flounder, but it certainly was finding the right balance between, you know, not sheltering people from the experiences that they need to shape their career, and then also making sure that it is a teaching opportunity that you can come back and debrief and learn afterwards. But the other thing that I also always remember for him, I used to come in later years sometimes to visit him at the office and catch up. And when I would say who I— tell the security guard downstairs who I was coming to see, His response was without fail, Harvey Krueger, the nicest man in the building. And, you know, to have someone who’s so senior and yet really sees everyone from the man standing at the door when he walks in, knows them, knows their name, takes an interest in them, that was also a kind of a huge lesson that I take with me and don’t take for granted.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s really wonderful. Looking now at sort of senior people like that, or just with legendary people like that, has there been any advice that you’ve heard over the years is there any creed or motto that you live by?
Naomi: I really believe in following your own path in the sense of not trying too hard to construct a story that makes sense or taking a job that you think is the right thing for you to do, but really to follow your heart in terms of where your passion lies. And I always joke that it was only when I sat down to write my applications for grad school that I managed to invent a story that somehow tied together all of the unrelated things that I had done in my life until then and made it seem like there was a lot of reason and rationale behind it. And so I think that’s true. And then I think it also, I remember once I have an uncle who’s very dear to me. And I once sent him a link to an article that had been published about a big project that I had been involved in. And I said, you know, it’s a great article, but they didn’t mention me at all. You would never know that this was my project. He said to me, you know, the work itself needs to be its own reward. And that’s very true. And, you know, it’s hard to remember sometimes. We all have egos and we all love to see our name attached to things. But I think that the real satisfaction needs to be from the impact that we had, things that we managed to build. And so I repeat that to myself every time there’s an article that doesn’t mention my name.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, we’re definitely going to mention you here on this podcast. But finally, Any advice you might have for your younger self? Anything, any gems of wisdom you wish you had known a little earlier?
Naomi: I always debate on this one because on one hand I look back and I say, well, why did I take myself so seriously? You know, why did I, why was I, you know, working so hard and then not just having more fun? And at times I would say to my younger self, you know, just relax and have more fun along the way. Not that, you know, I had fun, but I was quite driven about goals that I wanted to achieve and things I wanted to do. But then I also, in a way, I still don’t completely buy that advice. I mean, I think definitely life is to enjoy, but I also think there’s a certain magic about being young and being so passionate about things that it’s actually the time to go all you in, know, and you don’t have other commitments and you don’t have other things distracting you. And if there’s something you’re passionate about, that you’re really passionate about, not you because, know, a teacher said or a parent said, but that you really love, then yes, know, you do it. Sit all night reading about an area that you’re passionate about because you won’t have that time later and you won’t even maybe have that drive later. So I really, that would be my advice to people, you know, find the thing that you love, even if it doesn’t seem at this point that it’s leading you anywhere on a career journey and immerse yourself in it.
Aoifinn Devitt: Those are wonderful pieces of advice. I agree with you. I was an attorney in New York in my early 20s and definitely that is the time to work those kind of hours. And I think I knew it then too. It was such, so wonderful to have our conversation. I really wanted to, I’m so delighted to hear there are people like you at the, really in these groundbreaking areas of social impact. As I said, it is a new frontier and thank you for bringing the discipline and the innovation that you are to it. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you for sharing your insights with us.
Naomi: That’s very kind and it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Me.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
