Maeve Mc: How letting your fears hold you back can stop you getting what you want. I’m Maeve McCullen, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond. I’m joined today by Avigail Bar Timor-Rosen, who is currently a Business Operations Associate at Payoneer. Prior to this, she was a Community Manager at Women in High Tech, which has more than 14,000 members. Avigail is passionate about the promotion and representation of women in the Israeli tech industry. Welcome, Abigail. Thanks so much for joining me today.
19. Avigail Bar: Thank you for having me.
Maeve Mc: So you were working as a building inspector, but then changed your career course completely. What inspired the move?
19. Avigail Bar: So one thing that I should mention that it wasn’t like something that had just happened one day, right? It was over 5 years long and exhausting years. So it wasn’t just like, you know, suddenly just like something that day and changed my mind and I did something that drastically changed everything. It was like something that’s built. First, I didn’t like it. I understand that it’s very, it’s very different from what I thought it will be. And then I felt like I can do more. I felt like I could do more, but I haven’t, right? And then something just changed in my personal life. This was like not related at all. And then I understand that I need to do something, right? So it took me 5 years, basically, But then I decided like, enough is enough, and I had to do something.
Maeve Mc: Okay, so then during those 5 years, that whole time you’re working at this job that you hated?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, I think I loved it at first. But then as I grew older, I realized that I have so much more potential, so many talents that I’m like, I’m not bringing into my day work. I’m doing some other things that I’m like, I’m good at, it’s fine, but it’s not amazing. And I knew I could be amazing. So I searched for this, like, this spark.
Maeve Mc: So then at the end of the 5 years, you quit the job and you were like, I need to find out what is that spark?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah. So basically what I did is, I think this is something that most of the people does when they like searching their next career step. I went to school, right? And I found people like feeling more comfortable to go and get a second degree instead of like searching what they really want to do in their life. So I did that and it didn’t work. So I did another degree, which also didn’t work. I remember myself thinking like, I need to do something else, but I don’t know what. Like I had this, oh, so much energy inside of me. And I thought like, just show me the mountain I need to climb on. I just run all over it, but I didn’t know what. So I remember that I was like jogging with a friend once and we were just talking. And then I thought to myself, wait, maybe the fact that I don’t know what I want to do with my life, maybe it’s Maybe it’s an advantage. And I felt like, okay, I don’t have any obligation. I can just do whatever I want. I have so many talents. I can just pick one and see what happens. So what I thought is like, okay, so what do I want? If I don’t know, like, to name a specific thing, what do I want? And the answer was, I want money. And I know that there’s some women that’s feeling uncomfortable or people that’s feeling uncomfortable with that answer because it’s like, it sounds like very superficial, right? But actually, I feel like it’s something that people or women should be honest with themselves if they want it and should definitely go and get and achieve those things if they want. So I knew that I want money. And I thought to myself, okay, where I can get it? And the answer was in the high-tech industry. So there I am with like 5 years with irrelevant, completely irrelevant experience, but with 2 degrees, which is like partially relevant. I’m already 27, which is a bit older in like, in terms of getting your first job in a completely new industry. But yeah, I was fully enthusiastic and I started.
Maeve Mc: What you said about that you realized what you wanted was money. I agree that many women feel uncomfortable saying something like that. So I think it’s great that you can say that openly. I also was wondering what you think about the idea that I think money also means so much more than just money. I think it means independence. And it means security, which I think most people would agree that they want, but they feel, especially women, feel insecure saying that that’s what they want, putting it in terms like money.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, exactly. I feel like the society is like expecting us to be more generous and polite about our needs. And if you’re saying that you want money, you’re like, sounds a bit greedy. But actually, I can tell you that I was lecturing, I did this lecture with young girls that are searching for like, this is something that they will need to do like a lot of years from now, but they’re now searching their own voice or their own career path. But as I talked with them about this, I actually explained to them that it means that you can have as many kids as you want because you can plan your family and you don’t need to worry about money. You can choose which job you want. You can choose your hours. You can choose where do you want to live? It basically allows you to choose the life that you want and suits you the best.
Maeve Mc: Absolutely. And what did those young girls say when you explained it to them like that?
19. Avigail Bar: After the talk, I spoke with their teacher and she said that she wanted me to put it out, like to take it out of the presentation. She didn’t want me to talk about money. But after I explained it, she said like, well, why do I feel that uncomfortable? No, they should hear it. They should talk like that. Yeah, that was like a really proud moment for me as well. But yeah, I think that’s more and more when we’re talking about it in those terms, more and more women feeling much more confident to tell it to themselves.
Maeve Mc: Yeah, because it gives them more choices. So then you started out in tech. So what area did you decide to go into in tech?
19. Avigail Bar: So it wasn’t much as a decision or like choosing as just to understand like, what can I do? Because I’m looking at myself. I have 2 degrees, but as I said, they’re not relevant. I have an experience which is not relevant. So I had to adjust myself and adjust everything in my resume so they can fit into the page of the CV that HR is holding and reviewing, and it needs to talk the same language, right? So I just choose whoever can accept me, and I know that I can just go into a startup, a small startup that are always short in money and eager to find some really high motivated, talented that are willing to work hard and, you know, compromise on their salary. So I was like an administrative manager at a small startup company, which I really love that’s called Zero Energy Solutions, which is in the clean tech industry. And I was like an administrative manager. At first, my job was to make sure that we have coffee, to see like the expenses of the company. But as the company grew, I gained more and more trust with the founders and I gained more and more responsibilities. So, at the end of my role there, I found myself responsible for an operation that spread all over the world, basically. And that was, I think, one of the things that really like grew my career or gave a boost to my career because it was an amazing opportunity just to learn how things are being done.
Maeve Mc: It kind of sounds like that job gave you that spark that you were talking about.
19. Avigail Bar: Exactly. I don’t know how to say it in English, but sometimes I was just jumping on the whole, just like walking happily down the hall, waiting for a whole new day. I really loved it.
Maeve Mc: That must have been such a lovely contrast from what you were doing before as the building inspector. So, you were community manager, woman in high tech. How did you see a way to encourage women to get involved or to promote companies to hire women?
19. Avigail Bar: So, I must admit that I don’t know much of a company, okay? I don’t know all of the companies that is out there, but I do know a lot of women. And I think that if you want like a seat at the table, grab the damn chair yourself. So I spoke with a lot of women, and I think that’s the one thing that needs to be changed. Like, there’s a lot of things, but we can change ourselves is our mindset. So I know that there is so many talented women that are very hesitated of like going into the high tech because it’s, as I said, demanding and it’s hard and it’s like basically an environment that’s not always supporting women’s needs. And they have this all kind of like voices in their head, like, what will I do if I’ll get pregnant? What will I do if like I have a kid that is sick? How can I stay late until 9 AM when I need to pick up my kid? And I think that it’s up to us first to explain them. There are jobs that you can do both. There are companies that will welcome you and they understand your situation. You can see amazing companies that are doing a lot of great things. They have like a nursery room and they have all those programs that promoting women in their company and outside their company. So you can see that. Okay. So that’s a first thing. So they need to know, okay. They need to know that it’s, it is possible. It exists. There are companies that people are not staying after 5 every day. It’s out there. This unicorn. And the second thing is I encounter a lot of women and their voices, as I said, and their worries and hesitation. And I just think that you need to change the way that you look at things. So let’s take, for example, this is something that I hear a lot. I go into an interview and they’re asking me about my kids. And I don’t know how it’s at your end of the world, but here in Israel, it’s basically legally not really okay. It’s like in gray area, but they do have a way to ask it. So when I hear a woman talking like that, I’m telling her, do you want to be a part? They always ask me like, how should I answer, right? And I always say like, just say what you have, like be blunt. Like this is the situation in your life, right? If it won’t match in your first date, you don’t want to marry this kind of company. So basically I feel like women should own their status. You are going to be here for a lot of years. You have a unique value. You should own it. I think that we have things in our mind that blocking us for getting the full potential or just getting those opportunities that we are well-deserved, that we can get to ourselves. We we can, are deserved like this well-paid job with this excellent work environment, with this amazing workspace and we can get it. So we don’t need to hold ourselves back just because we are women and we have those other needs. We just need to put it on the table and say, like, this is who we are. I have a value. So take me as it is. And I think that companies are dying to get women that are that confident and know, like, their value.
Maeve Mc: Yeah, I think so too. And I like your way you put it of just take a seat at the table, you know, grab the chair and take a seat at the table. I think that’s very good advice. I know that you, just going back to you saying, know, it took a while to figure out what you wanted to do and it took around 5 years, that sounds like it was a difficult time. How did you overcome that? I know you talked about, you know, you had this moment where you realized, okay, what do I want? But day in, day out, that’s a hard thing to live with. And I was just wondering, how did you get through it?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, I guess that the first time, like those 5 years, I wasn’t coping with them so well, but actually the second time that it happened. So after those 3 years on this amazing startup company, I found myself again without a job and searching like what my next step should be. And then I think that the interesting thing happened because first I’ve searched a way to network, to know people, to know amazing women. So, this amazing Facebook group of Israeli women in high tech, at first, I just, you know, comment on some interesting posts. And then, as I knew more and more of those women, I actually asked to be part of the managers, which was like an amazing experience. And I learned so much just like being there, being the voice of so many talented women in the high-tech industry. First, I just like met different women and sat with them and heard like, what do they do in their day to day? Like, what did that mean? This job title that I really wanted, they had like an amazing job title and I said, oh, I can do that. Or, oh, that sounds interesting. And then I sat down with them and I learned like, is it something that I want? Is it something that I’m capable to do? And I think that I had this formula of how to think about How to know what your next step should be. So first, I think I learned that, and this is like from my previous, you know, for the first time. So it doesn’t have to be a job title. You can be chasing after anything. It can be some value. It can be, I want to make something good. I don’t know. It can be basically, it can be money as I did, but it can be basically anywhere. So you don’t have to choose a specific title. In order to know what your next step. The second thing is, I know that people saying it all the time, but yeah, interview. Like, if you know someone that does something interesting, or as someone put it, if you want to kill him and get his job. So if you are willing to commit a murder, you should go and talk to him and see what he actually does.
Maeve Mc: Wait, wait, wait, I have to interrupt you here. So if you want to kill someone, that must mean you really want that person’s job, and therefore you you should talk to them and get advice about how to get it. Is that the idea?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, exactly. And I actually did it. I found this amazing guy in an amazing company which does something that sounds really, really interesting. And I was following him, like stalking basically, on like social media. And then I just like sent him a message saying, what you’re doing sounds really amazing. Would you have the time to just like talk to me for 30 minutes, just explain what you do? And he said, yes. I was like shocked. And it actually led to a really amazing thing. So we met. I wrote like every word that he said. I wrote everything down and I was super excited. And then I told him like, it’s so interesting that it’s not only interesting to me. I think that there’s a lot of people that will be interested in what you’re saying. So he said like, okay, what are you going to do about it? And I said, okay, I’ll write a Facebook post. And then I hang up. And I thought, I can do more. So we actually created a meetup, which is a— I don’t know if everyone knows, but it’s like a social professional event in his company that they hosted us about the profession that I wanted to be. I wasn’t there yet. I was just starting, but I was hosting a professional event. We sold 300 tickets in less than 10 minutes.
Maeve Mc: Oh, wow.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, it was amazing event. But there I am speaking with this amazing person. Person, and he actually introduced me to his VP of operations, which introduced me to another VP in a different company. This is Israel, like everyone knows everyone, but it’s still hard to get a meeting with a VP.
Maeve Mc: Can I just ask you, so what was this role that this man had that you so desperately wanted, needed to talk to him about what he was doing? So what you’re doing now? Okay, cool.
19. Avigail Bar: Exactly.
Maeve Mc: Very cool. Okay, so then he did this meetup, So was it through the Women in Tech and High Tech that you— okay.
19. Avigail Bar: So this is, I think, the interesting part. So at first I needed the platform in order to know women, to organize things, and then it started to be my own thing. Like I had my own initiative and I’m not like part of any organization. I’m just like doing good, whatever I want. I’m combining ideas with some talented women that have some several platforms. We have them meet up with you. So I did with them like a whole week of just like session of how to promote yourself when you are working. There’s a really stupid but very fun series that’s called The Bold Type and it’s on Netflix. So I saw this one chapter which one of the characters are like crying and saying like, there is this promotion that I keep wanting, but I’m not getting it. Each time they’re saying like, oh, I’m sorry, there’s some other people that need to be promoted before you, or I’m sorry, it’s not a good time. Time, or sorry, we know we don’t have money, but I really want the part. What would I do? And her half-drunk friend basically tells her that she should go and promote herself. She said, like, be promotable. And this line, like, curved in my mind, and I said, this is what we need to do as women. We need to be promotable. If they don’t promote us, we will do whatever we can to promote ourselves. We don’t sit around and waiting for this knight to come on his like noble steed to rescue us and to give us the promotion that we deserve. We will go and get it for ourselves. We will understand what we want to do next. We will create the networking that helps us to, to get that type of job. We will highlight our capabilities to do that part. Yeah. So we created like a whole week with morning and evening session around that topic. And There are, I think, more than 200 women that participate on those sessions. It was really, really inspiring, I think, for them.
Maeve Mc: Wow, that’s great. So you led that with this other group.
19. Avigail Bar: Yep.
Maeve Mc: It’s great because it’s so specific. That’s what I think is so helpful. It’s simple, like promote yourselves, but it’s actually something that people don’t think to do a lot of the time, which is great.
19. Avigail Bar: I think that people are just neglecting it. Like once you get the job that you want, you’re like, Okay, now we’ll just do it. And I do it like, and by the way, this is something that women tend to do. There’s just thinking like, if I perform very, very well, they will surely like promote me. Like, this is what I need to do. I need to focus on my job, just do it very well. And then they will notice. And what we found is that this is not usually the case. They need to do other stuff. Of course that they need to be good at their job. In order to be more noticeable, as I said, like networking and know your opportunities inside the company or outside the company, or always notice like what is important in your job. Sometimes we want to do everything right because we want to please the other side. So if they’re saying something, you’re like, yeah, right. Like right away, sir. So sometimes it’s just about notice what is important and what is not.
Maeve Mc: Yeah, that’s great advice.
19. Avigail Bar: It’s simple, but, but it’s something that needs to be done and not just, you know, to sit around and wait until you understand that you want the next job, you need to work on it today. So, when you want the next job, it will be already there, the opportunity already be there.
Maeve Mc: So, in a way, what you’re talking about is both sort of needing a mentor, but also coaching. Both seem to be, have been quite important in your career journey.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah. Yes, it is.
Maeve Mc: And then, so jumping back to this business operation inspiration that you met and had the meetup with. What happened then with you? What was your journey then?
19. Avigail Bar: I think about what happened is, and I remember it from the first talk that I had with this person, I was like hanging up the phone and I was crying. And my like, husband, I was rushing out to say, are you okay? And I said, like, I’m great. I think I finally realized what I want to do. And I think that this is like the hard part to know what to do. So when I understand that, so that this is what I want to do, I actually put all of my energy to get this role. So I met, as I said, those VPs on different companies that they will know my name. And I learned the language that they’re using. So when I got this opportunity to be interviewed by this amazing company, Payoneer, I already knew what I’m talking about. I already knew what to highlight in my resume that is related to this specific role. And I knew like how to present myself in a way that I will be not a good fit, but a great fit. For that opportunity. So I think that, yeah, the hard part is to understand what you want, right? After you knowing that, it’s just like to do a small adjustment, to show yourself as the person that needs to get that job. And from there, it’s like an easy peasy.
Maeve Mc: What I think is really interesting about what you’re saying is the fact that you highlight how hard it is to sometimes to know what you want, because I do think there’s this sort of belief that people have that they should just know what they want.. But what’s really great about your career journey has been that actually you’ve had to really work hard to figure out what it is. And that, you know, I think people don’t talk about that so much.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah. I feel like this is like a deep problem of our generation and the industry is full with amazing opportunities and some very, very great jobs. So, just to decide what you want is extremely hard. And I think that, as I said before, maybe I didn’t complete the idea. So basically, when you want to think about what the next step, I think that you can think about like 3 things. So first, as I said, not to be focused on a title, right? It can be like, you can go after whatever you want. The second interesting thing that people tend to not think of it as something important is, and I think that it’s also something that you can find it in women, is go with your guts. This is something that you don’t say, right? It’s like you tend to put it aside because like, don’t go with your gut, go with your head, go with the logic thing. But I think that, you know, in your stomach what you need to do, you have this feeling and also be smart about it. And what does that mean? It means that the high-tech industry has this very complicated things for in the one hand, there’s a lot of demand, right? They always searching for new talents and they’re offering like a lot of money if you’re bringing people to the company. But on the other hand, there’s on each job title or on each job, you have sometimes 300 applications to fit in or to blend in or to accept in a specific company. You need to also be smart about it and to calculate your odds. Basically to think, what can I offer? Like what value am I bringing with me? And what do they need? I remember that there was a time that I thought maybe to be a product manager. Well, I did some of it. And I think that I love the idea of being a product manager. But then I realized that there’s so much demand of like people that wants to be in product management. And I remember telling to myself, like, if I wanted really hard, I can do it. But it means that I need to learn it and I need to beat 300 other women that are talented as me or driven as me. So I thought to myself, okay, maybe it’s something that I can do, but this is not something that I will go after. I’ll go after something that is less demand that I can actually achieve. So what I’m saying is like, be smart about it, go with your guts and talk to people. Yeah. They will, they will show you the way basically.
Maeve Mc: Well, I feel like you’ve offered loads of amazing advice. But if there was one piece of advice that you had to give your younger self, what would it be?
19. Avigail Bar: I’ve encountered this phrase not a long time ago, that actually John Doerr, the inventor of the OKR methods from Google, said that ideas are easy, execution is everything. And I love this phrase. I feel like there’s a lot of things that are backing women or people, backing them down when they’re thinking about how to promote themselves. Or hard to find new opportunities. And they have like so many great ideas, but they’re like, don’t do anything with it. It’s like, it’s so much easier to stay in bed or in front of the TV or just like, you know, hesitate or maybe just to perfect your lecture until like the last word of it. And I feel like if you just go ahead and do it, it doesn’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to nail it. Basically, you just need to do it. Like, I knew so many people that talked about doing this session about the operation or creating the other meetup that I did or doing such an amazing thing, but then it just stays in an idea. I think that what is important, just go ahead and do it. It’s not that hard. I promise you.
Maeve Mc: I completely get what you mean. I think that’s super interesting. As a, you know, I’m a writer and I talk to writer friends about that and about how Basically, you can have all these amazing ideas for stories, but unless you actually write them down, that’s all they are. You know, they don’t become anything else. And I think, I think it’s so interesting, but so true, the idea that it’s actually the doing of the thing that’s important.
19. Avigail Bar: Completely. And it doesn’t really matter the quality of it because as you start, people will join you. They will come along, they will guide you and you will be better next time. Basically, and the opportunities that is coming after you’re doing one small thing, it’s like endless. You get endless opportunities and endless things that you can do after that. For me, that was like the life changer.
Maeve Mc: Well, I think you also touch on something that’s super important as well, which is to not be too married to perfection, you know, to just do it. And then as you do it and you learn, you get better. But initially, it’s really about just doing it.
19. Avigail Bar: Done is better than perfect.
Maeve Mc: Yeah.
19. Avigail Bar: Don’t let your fears hold you back. Just the thing that you have that is spinning in your head for the couple last week, just pick the phone, do the first step. It will happen. And I think it will change your life. I don’t know, maybe I’m too optimistic, but I think it has the capability to change your life.
Maeve Mc: Well, I love all this. It’s very practical and sort of specific advice for people out there, which, which I think is really, really cool. And just lastly, do you have any future goals?
19. Avigail Bar: Well, I know that you asked me before, like when we prepared this session, and I thought about it really hard. And I thought like, how do I not have a specific goal in mind? Like, I’m trying to drive women toward their goals and you don’t have any. But then I understand that the most important things, like I have many goals that are out there, right? But with all the things that I’ve done with the road that I had to go through, I think that one of the things that are interfering me, I may say in my way, is the confidence that I have in myself and my capability. I know that I’m talking here, like with so much confidence, but it’s actually I think that is something that I, and I hear it for a lot of women and friends, that they’re struggling with, to be more confident in the value that you’re bringing into the table. I think that it starts within, like in your heart, and then people just can see it through. It’s not about getting the opportunities that you want to get. It’s not about being lucky. It’s just about to believe that you deserve it and that you can get it. And then it’s just there. And this is something that I need to keep practicing, basically.
Maeve Mc: Yeah. That’s a hard one, but yeah, it’s very valuable. Is it something that you see as an obstacle that you face a lot, or is it something that you’ve kind of— it’s eased, you’ve gained more confidence with time, or it’s something that with each new endeavor, each new stage, that you still come face to face with this sort of lack of confidence?
19. Avigail Bar: It’s actually a very interesting question because I feel like this is something that each step that you’re making, it’s like completing the last level. And now that you’ve graduated to the next level, like you still encounter this challenge in just a different name or a different way. Because basically each time you need to find the strength to find the confidence. So it’s an interesting question because I do feel that I gain more and more confidence over the year, but I do still feel that it’s something that we are always be facing in. And I was lucky to have like mentor and friends that are like doing this with me. And I feel that you can see the result. I know that there’s some superstars that talking about like, you know, they’re, they’re afraid to go on a stage. So I’m a superstar, I think, that’s still afraid to go on a stage.
Maeve Mc: I think that’s perfect. I like that idea. That’s a nice image. A nice image to end this on because I think that sort of sums up perfectly everything you’ve been talking about.
19. Avigail Bar: Thank you.
Maeve Mc: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. It’s been really great chatting with you and hearing about your career journey and path.
19. Avigail Bar: Thank you, Maven, and thanks for the women or men that out there that was listening for us on the, those last minutes.
Maeve Mc: I’m Maven McCullin. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you like what you heard and would like to tune into your more inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Maeve Mc: How letting your fears hold you back can stop you getting what you want. I’m Maeve McCullen, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond. I’m joined today by Avigail Bar Timor-Rosen, who is currently a Business Operations Associate at Payoneer. Prior to this, she was a Community Manager at Women in High Tech, which has more than 14,000 members. Avigail is passionate about the promotion and representation of women in the Israeli tech industry. Welcome, Abigail. Thanks so much for joining me today.
19. Avigail Bar: Thank you for having me.
Maeve Mc: So you were working as a building inspector, but then changed your career course completely. What inspired the move?
19. Avigail Bar: So one thing that I should mention that it wasn’t like something that had just happened one day, right? It was over 5 years long and exhausting years. So it wasn’t just like, you know, suddenly just like something that day and changed my mind and I did something that drastically changed everything. It was like something that’s built. First, I didn’t like it. I understand that it’s very, it’s very different from what I thought it will be. And then I felt like I can do more. I felt like I could do more, but I haven’t, right? And then something just changed in my personal life. This was like not related at all. And then I understand that I need to do something, right? So it took me 5 years, basically, But then I decided like, enough is enough, and I had to do something.
Maeve Mc: Okay, so then during those 5 years, that whole time you’re working at this job that you hated?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, I think I loved it at first. But then as I grew older, I realized that I have so much more potential, so many talents that I’m like, I’m not bringing into my day work. I’m doing some other things that I’m like, I’m good at, it’s fine, but it’s not amazing. And I knew I could be amazing. So I searched for this, like, this spark.
Maeve Mc: So then at the end of the 5 years, you quit the job and you were like, I need to find out what is that spark?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah. So basically what I did is, I think this is something that most of the people does when they like searching their next career step. I went to school, right? And I found people like feeling more comfortable to go and get a second degree instead of like searching what they really want to do in their life. So I did that and it didn’t work. So I did another degree, which also didn’t work. I remember myself thinking like, I need to do something else, but I don’t know what. Like I had this, oh, so much energy inside of me. And I thought like, just show me the mountain I need to climb on. I just run all over it, but I didn’t know what. So I remember that I was like jogging with a friend once and we were just talking. And then I thought to myself, wait, maybe the fact that I don’t know what I want to do with my life, maybe it’s Maybe it’s an advantage. And I felt like, okay, I don’t have any obligation. I can just do whatever I want. I have so many talents. I can just pick one and see what happens. So what I thought is like, okay, so what do I want? If I don’t know, like, to name a specific thing, what do I want? And the answer was, I want money. And I know that there’s some women that’s feeling uncomfortable or people that’s feeling uncomfortable with that answer because it’s like, it sounds like very superficial, right? But actually, I feel like it’s something that people or women should be honest with themselves if they want it and should definitely go and get and achieve those things if they want. So I knew that I want money. And I thought to myself, okay, where I can get it? And the answer was in the high-tech industry. So there I am with like 5 years with irrelevant, completely irrelevant experience, but with 2 degrees, which is like partially relevant. I’m already 27, which is a bit older in like, in terms of getting your first job in a completely new industry. But yeah, I was fully enthusiastic and I started.
Maeve Mc: What you said about that you realized what you wanted was money. I agree that many women feel uncomfortable saying something like that. So I think it’s great that you can say that openly. I also was wondering what you think about the idea that I think money also means so much more than just money. I think it means independence. And it means security, which I think most people would agree that they want, but they feel, especially women, feel insecure saying that that’s what they want, putting it in terms like money.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, exactly. I feel like the society is like expecting us to be more generous and polite about our needs. And if you’re saying that you want money, you’re like, sounds a bit greedy. But actually, I can tell you that I was lecturing, I did this lecture with young girls that are searching for like, this is something that they will need to do like a lot of years from now, but they’re now searching their own voice or their own career path. But as I talked with them about this, I actually explained to them that it means that you can have as many kids as you want because you can plan your family and you don’t need to worry about money. You can choose which job you want. You can choose your hours. You can choose where do you want to live? It basically allows you to choose the life that you want and suits you the best.
Maeve Mc: Absolutely. And what did those young girls say when you explained it to them like that?
19. Avigail Bar: After the talk, I spoke with their teacher and she said that she wanted me to put it out, like to take it out of the presentation. She didn’t want me to talk about money. But after I explained it, she said like, well, why do I feel that uncomfortable? No, they should hear it. They should talk like that. Yeah, that was like a really proud moment for me as well. But yeah, I think that’s more and more when we’re talking about it in those terms, more and more women feeling much more confident to tell it to themselves.
Maeve Mc: Yeah, because it gives them more choices. So then you started out in tech. So what area did you decide to go into in tech?
19. Avigail Bar: So it wasn’t much as a decision or like choosing as just to understand like, what can I do? Because I’m looking at myself. I have 2 degrees, but as I said, they’re not relevant. I have an experience which is not relevant. So I had to adjust myself and adjust everything in my resume so they can fit into the page of the CV that HR is holding and reviewing, and it needs to talk the same language, right? So I just choose whoever can accept me, and I know that I can just go into a startup, a small startup that are always short in money and eager to find some really high motivated, talented that are willing to work hard and, you know, compromise on their salary. So I was like an administrative manager at a small startup company, which I really love that’s called Zero Energy Solutions, which is in the clean tech industry. And I was like an administrative manager. At first, my job was to make sure that we have coffee, to see like the expenses of the company. But as the company grew, I gained more and more trust with the founders and I gained more and more responsibilities. So, at the end of my role there, I found myself responsible for an operation that spread all over the world, basically. And that was, I think, one of the things that really like grew my career or gave a boost to my career because it was an amazing opportunity just to learn how things are being done.
Maeve Mc: It kind of sounds like that job gave you that spark that you were talking about.
19. Avigail Bar: Exactly. I don’t know how to say it in English, but sometimes I was just jumping on the whole, just like walking happily down the hall, waiting for a whole new day. I really loved it.
Maeve Mc: That must have been such a lovely contrast from what you were doing before as the building inspector. So, you were community manager, woman in high tech. How did you see a way to encourage women to get involved or to promote companies to hire women?
19. Avigail Bar: So, I must admit that I don’t know much of a company, okay? I don’t know all of the companies that is out there, but I do know a lot of women. And I think that if you want like a seat at the table, grab the damn chair yourself. So I spoke with a lot of women, and I think that’s the one thing that needs to be changed. Like, there’s a lot of things, but we can change ourselves is our mindset. So I know that there is so many talented women that are very hesitated of like going into the high tech because it’s, as I said, demanding and it’s hard and it’s like basically an environment that’s not always supporting women’s needs. And they have this all kind of like voices in their head, like, what will I do if I’ll get pregnant? What will I do if like I have a kid that is sick? How can I stay late until 9 AM when I need to pick up my kid? And I think that it’s up to us first to explain them. There are jobs that you can do both. There are companies that will welcome you and they understand your situation. You can see amazing companies that are doing a lot of great things. They have like a nursery room and they have all those programs that promoting women in their company and outside their company. So you can see that. Okay. So that’s a first thing. So they need to know, okay. They need to know that it’s, it is possible. It exists. There are companies that people are not staying after 5 every day. It’s out there. This unicorn. And the second thing is I encounter a lot of women and their voices, as I said, and their worries and hesitation. And I just think that you need to change the way that you look at things. So let’s take, for example, this is something that I hear a lot. I go into an interview and they’re asking me about my kids. And I don’t know how it’s at your end of the world, but here in Israel, it’s basically legally not really okay. It’s like in gray area, but they do have a way to ask it. So when I hear a woman talking like that, I’m telling her, do you want to be a part? They always ask me like, how should I answer, right? And I always say like, just say what you have, like be blunt. Like this is the situation in your life, right? If it won’t match in your first date, you don’t want to marry this kind of company. So basically I feel like women should own their status. You are going to be here for a lot of years. You have a unique value. You should own it. I think that we have things in our mind that blocking us for getting the full potential or just getting those opportunities that we are well-deserved, that we can get to ourselves. We we can, are deserved like this well-paid job with this excellent work environment, with this amazing workspace and we can get it. So we don’t need to hold ourselves back just because we are women and we have those other needs. We just need to put it on the table and say, like, this is who we are. I have a value. So take me as it is. And I think that companies are dying to get women that are that confident and know, like, their value.
Maeve Mc: Yeah, I think so too. And I like your way you put it of just take a seat at the table, you know, grab the chair and take a seat at the table. I think that’s very good advice. I know that you, just going back to you saying, know, it took a while to figure out what you wanted to do and it took around 5 years, that sounds like it was a difficult time. How did you overcome that? I know you talked about, you know, you had this moment where you realized, okay, what do I want? But day in, day out, that’s a hard thing to live with. And I was just wondering, how did you get through it?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, I guess that the first time, like those 5 years, I wasn’t coping with them so well, but actually the second time that it happened. So after those 3 years on this amazing startup company, I found myself again without a job and searching like what my next step should be. And then I think that the interesting thing happened because first I’ve searched a way to network, to know people, to know amazing women. So, this amazing Facebook group of Israeli women in high tech, at first, I just, you know, comment on some interesting posts. And then, as I knew more and more of those women, I actually asked to be part of the managers, which was like an amazing experience. And I learned so much just like being there, being the voice of so many talented women in the high-tech industry. First, I just like met different women and sat with them and heard like, what do they do in their day to day? Like, what did that mean? This job title that I really wanted, they had like an amazing job title and I said, oh, I can do that. Or, oh, that sounds interesting. And then I sat down with them and I learned like, is it something that I want? Is it something that I’m capable to do? And I think that I had this formula of how to think about How to know what your next step should be. So first, I think I learned that, and this is like from my previous, you know, for the first time. So it doesn’t have to be a job title. You can be chasing after anything. It can be some value. It can be, I want to make something good. I don’t know. It can be basically, it can be money as I did, but it can be basically anywhere. So you don’t have to choose a specific title. In order to know what your next step. The second thing is, I know that people saying it all the time, but yeah, interview. Like, if you know someone that does something interesting, or as someone put it, if you want to kill him and get his job. So if you are willing to commit a murder, you should go and talk to him and see what he actually does.
Maeve Mc: Wait, wait, wait, I have to interrupt you here. So if you want to kill someone, that must mean you really want that person’s job, and therefore you you should talk to them and get advice about how to get it. Is that the idea?
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, exactly. And I actually did it. I found this amazing guy in an amazing company which does something that sounds really, really interesting. And I was following him, like stalking basically, on like social media. And then I just like sent him a message saying, what you’re doing sounds really amazing. Would you have the time to just like talk to me for 30 minutes, just explain what you do? And he said, yes. I was like shocked. And it actually led to a really amazing thing. So we met. I wrote like every word that he said. I wrote everything down and I was super excited. And then I told him like, it’s so interesting that it’s not only interesting to me. I think that there’s a lot of people that will be interested in what you’re saying. So he said like, okay, what are you going to do about it? And I said, okay, I’ll write a Facebook post. And then I hang up. And I thought, I can do more. So we actually created a meetup, which is a— I don’t know if everyone knows, but it’s like a social professional event in his company that they hosted us about the profession that I wanted to be. I wasn’t there yet. I was just starting, but I was hosting a professional event. We sold 300 tickets in less than 10 minutes.
Maeve Mc: Oh, wow.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah, it was amazing event. But there I am speaking with this amazing person. Person, and he actually introduced me to his VP of operations, which introduced me to another VP in a different company. This is Israel, like everyone knows everyone, but it’s still hard to get a meeting with a VP.
Maeve Mc: Can I just ask you, so what was this role that this man had that you so desperately wanted, needed to talk to him about what he was doing? So what you’re doing now? Okay, cool.
19. Avigail Bar: Exactly.
Maeve Mc: Very cool. Okay, so then he did this meetup, So was it through the Women in Tech and High Tech that you— okay.
19. Avigail Bar: So this is, I think, the interesting part. So at first I needed the platform in order to know women, to organize things, and then it started to be my own thing. Like I had my own initiative and I’m not like part of any organization. I’m just like doing good, whatever I want. I’m combining ideas with some talented women that have some several platforms. We have them meet up with you. So I did with them like a whole week of just like session of how to promote yourself when you are working. There’s a really stupid but very fun series that’s called The Bold Type and it’s on Netflix. So I saw this one chapter which one of the characters are like crying and saying like, there is this promotion that I keep wanting, but I’m not getting it. Each time they’re saying like, oh, I’m sorry, there’s some other people that need to be promoted before you, or I’m sorry, it’s not a good time. Time, or sorry, we know we don’t have money, but I really want the part. What would I do? And her half-drunk friend basically tells her that she should go and promote herself. She said, like, be promotable. And this line, like, curved in my mind, and I said, this is what we need to do as women. We need to be promotable. If they don’t promote us, we will do whatever we can to promote ourselves. We don’t sit around and waiting for this knight to come on his like noble steed to rescue us and to give us the promotion that we deserve. We will go and get it for ourselves. We will understand what we want to do next. We will create the networking that helps us to, to get that type of job. We will highlight our capabilities to do that part. Yeah. So we created like a whole week with morning and evening session around that topic. And There are, I think, more than 200 women that participate on those sessions. It was really, really inspiring, I think, for them.
Maeve Mc: Wow, that’s great. So you led that with this other group.
19. Avigail Bar: Yep.
Maeve Mc: It’s great because it’s so specific. That’s what I think is so helpful. It’s simple, like promote yourselves, but it’s actually something that people don’t think to do a lot of the time, which is great.
19. Avigail Bar: I think that people are just neglecting it. Like once you get the job that you want, you’re like, Okay, now we’ll just do it. And I do it like, and by the way, this is something that women tend to do. There’s just thinking like, if I perform very, very well, they will surely like promote me. Like, this is what I need to do. I need to focus on my job, just do it very well. And then they will notice. And what we found is that this is not usually the case. They need to do other stuff. Of course that they need to be good at their job. In order to be more noticeable, as I said, like networking and know your opportunities inside the company or outside the company, or always notice like what is important in your job. Sometimes we want to do everything right because we want to please the other side. So if they’re saying something, you’re like, yeah, right. Like right away, sir. So sometimes it’s just about notice what is important and what is not.
Maeve Mc: Yeah, that’s great advice.
19. Avigail Bar: It’s simple, but, but it’s something that needs to be done and not just, you know, to sit around and wait until you understand that you want the next job, you need to work on it today. So, when you want the next job, it will be already there, the opportunity already be there.
Maeve Mc: So, in a way, what you’re talking about is both sort of needing a mentor, but also coaching. Both seem to be, have been quite important in your career journey.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah. Yes, it is.
Maeve Mc: And then, so jumping back to this business operation inspiration that you met and had the meetup with. What happened then with you? What was your journey then?
19. Avigail Bar: I think about what happened is, and I remember it from the first talk that I had with this person, I was like hanging up the phone and I was crying. And my like, husband, I was rushing out to say, are you okay? And I said, like, I’m great. I think I finally realized what I want to do. And I think that this is like the hard part to know what to do. So when I understand that, so that this is what I want to do, I actually put all of my energy to get this role. So I met, as I said, those VPs on different companies that they will know my name. And I learned the language that they’re using. So when I got this opportunity to be interviewed by this amazing company, Payoneer, I already knew what I’m talking about. I already knew what to highlight in my resume that is related to this specific role. And I knew like how to present myself in a way that I will be not a good fit, but a great fit. For that opportunity. So I think that, yeah, the hard part is to understand what you want, right? After you knowing that, it’s just like to do a small adjustment, to show yourself as the person that needs to get that job. And from there, it’s like an easy peasy.
Maeve Mc: What I think is really interesting about what you’re saying is the fact that you highlight how hard it is to sometimes to know what you want, because I do think there’s this sort of belief that people have that they should just know what they want.. But what’s really great about your career journey has been that actually you’ve had to really work hard to figure out what it is. And that, you know, I think people don’t talk about that so much.
19. Avigail Bar: Yeah. I feel like this is like a deep problem of our generation and the industry is full with amazing opportunities and some very, very great jobs. So, just to decide what you want is extremely hard. And I think that, as I said before, maybe I didn’t complete the idea. So basically, when you want to think about what the next step, I think that you can think about like 3 things. So first, as I said, not to be focused on a title, right? It can be like, you can go after whatever you want. The second interesting thing that people tend to not think of it as something important is, and I think that it’s also something that you can find it in women, is go with your guts. This is something that you don’t say, right? It’s like you tend to put it aside because like, don’t go with your gut, go with your head, go with the logic thing. But I think that, you know, in your stomach what you need to do, you have this feeling and also be smart about it. And what does that mean? It means that the high-tech industry has this very complicated things for in the one hand, there’s a lot of demand, right? They always searching for new talents and they’re offering like a lot of money if you’re bringing people to the company. But on the other hand, there’s on each job title or on each job, you have sometimes 300 applications to fit in or to blend in or to accept in a specific company. You need to also be smart about it and to calculate your odds. Basically to think, what can I offer? Like what value am I bringing with me? And what do they need? I remember that there was a time that I thought maybe to be a product manager. Well, I did some of it. And I think that I love the idea of being a product manager. But then I realized that there’s so much demand of like people that wants to be in product management. And I remember telling to myself, like, if I wanted really hard, I can do it. But it means that I need to learn it and I need to beat 300 other women that are talented as me or driven as me. So I thought to myself, okay, maybe it’s something that I can do, but this is not something that I will go after. I’ll go after something that is less demand that I can actually achieve. So what I’m saying is like, be smart about it, go with your guts and talk to people. Yeah. They will, they will show you the way basically.
Maeve Mc: Well, I feel like you’ve offered loads of amazing advice. But if there was one piece of advice that you had to give your younger self, what would it be?
19. Avigail Bar: I’ve encountered this phrase not a long time ago, that actually John Doerr, the inventor of the OKR methods from Google, said that ideas are easy, execution is everything. And I love this phrase. I feel like there’s a lot of things that are backing women or people, backing them down when they’re thinking about how to promote themselves. Or hard to find new opportunities. And they have like so many great ideas, but they’re like, don’t do anything with it. It’s like, it’s so much easier to stay in bed or in front of the TV or just like, you know, hesitate or maybe just to perfect your lecture until like the last word of it. And I feel like if you just go ahead and do it, it doesn’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to nail it. Basically, you just need to do it. Like, I knew so many people that talked about doing this session about the operation or creating the other meetup that I did or doing such an amazing thing, but then it just stays in an idea. I think that what is important, just go ahead and do it. It’s not that hard. I promise you.
Maeve Mc: I completely get what you mean. I think that’s super interesting. As a, you know, I’m a writer and I talk to writer friends about that and about how Basically, you can have all these amazing ideas for stories, but unless you actually write them down, that’s all they are. You know, they don’t become anything else. And I think, I think it’s so interesting, but so true, the idea that it’s actually the doing of the thing that’s important.
19. Avigail Bar: Completely. And it doesn’t really matter the quality of it because as you start, people will join you. They will come along, they will guide you and you will be better next time. Basically, and the opportunities that is coming after you’re doing one small thing, it’s like endless. You get endless opportunities and endless things that you can do after that. For me, that was like the life changer.
Maeve Mc: Well, I think you also touch on something that’s super important as well, which is to not be too married to perfection, you know, to just do it. And then as you do it and you learn, you get better. But initially, it’s really about just doing it.
19. Avigail Bar: Done is better than perfect.
Maeve Mc: Yeah.
19. Avigail Bar: Don’t let your fears hold you back. Just the thing that you have that is spinning in your head for the couple last week, just pick the phone, do the first step. It will happen. And I think it will change your life. I don’t know, maybe I’m too optimistic, but I think it has the capability to change your life.
Maeve Mc: Well, I love all this. It’s very practical and sort of specific advice for people out there, which, which I think is really, really cool. And just lastly, do you have any future goals?
19. Avigail Bar: Well, I know that you asked me before, like when we prepared this session, and I thought about it really hard. And I thought like, how do I not have a specific goal in mind? Like, I’m trying to drive women toward their goals and you don’t have any. But then I understand that the most important things, like I have many goals that are out there, right? But with all the things that I’ve done with the road that I had to go through, I think that one of the things that are interfering me, I may say in my way, is the confidence that I have in myself and my capability. I know that I’m talking here, like with so much confidence, but it’s actually I think that is something that I, and I hear it for a lot of women and friends, that they’re struggling with, to be more confident in the value that you’re bringing into the table. I think that it starts within, like in your heart, and then people just can see it through. It’s not about getting the opportunities that you want to get. It’s not about being lucky. It’s just about to believe that you deserve it and that you can get it. And then it’s just there. And this is something that I need to keep practicing, basically.
Maeve Mc: Yeah. That’s a hard one, but yeah, it’s very valuable. Is it something that you see as an obstacle that you face a lot, or is it something that you’ve kind of— it’s eased, you’ve gained more confidence with time, or it’s something that with each new endeavor, each new stage, that you still come face to face with this sort of lack of confidence?
19. Avigail Bar: It’s actually a very interesting question because I feel like this is something that each step that you’re making, it’s like completing the last level. And now that you’ve graduated to the next level, like you still encounter this challenge in just a different name or a different way. Because basically each time you need to find the strength to find the confidence. So it’s an interesting question because I do feel that I gain more and more confidence over the year, but I do still feel that it’s something that we are always be facing in. And I was lucky to have like mentor and friends that are like doing this with me. And I feel that you can see the result. I know that there’s some superstars that talking about like, you know, they’re, they’re afraid to go on a stage. So I’m a superstar, I think, that’s still afraid to go on a stage.
Maeve Mc: I think that’s perfect. I like that idea. That’s a nice image. A nice image to end this on because I think that sort of sums up perfectly everything you’ve been talking about.
19. Avigail Bar: Thank you.
Maeve Mc: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. It’s been really great chatting with you and hearing about your career journey and path.
19. Avigail Bar: Thank you, Maven, and thanks for the women or men that out there that was listening for us on the, those last minutes.
Maeve Mc: I’m Maven McCullin. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you like what you heard and would like to tune into your more inspiring Israeli women in tech and beyond, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
