Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast was made possible by the kind support of Speaking with Images, a firm focused on motivational speaking, increasing resilience, improving communication, and building better workplace cultures.
Marisa: And she said to me, everyone here is dressed so nicely, and I’m embarrassed about what I’m wearing. That linked to why she didn’t want to take her coat off. And we have to not forget that these tall glass buildings in the city The way that we go into offices can be incredibly intimidating, and actually breaking down some of those barriers where it doesn’t really matter how you dress, it doesn’t matter kind of where you come from, I think is part of our duty if we’re trying to get a broadened range of talent within our industry.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Marissa Hall, who is co-head of the Thinking Ahead Institute at Willis Towers Watson, where she has spent most of her career, starting initially as an investment consultant. She was named Woman of the Year in the 2020 Women in Finance Summit and Awards series and was on the 2020 list of Financial News Rising Stars in Asset Management in Europe. She’s a member of the steering committee of the Diversity Project in its ethnicity work stream and is a standing committee member of Investment 2020. Welcome, Marisa, thanks for joining me today.
Marisa: Thank you so much, it’s an absolute pleasure to be here.
Aoifinn Devitt: So let’s start with your background and how you ended up pursuing a role in investment.
Marisa: So gosh, it was quite interesting. So I am originally from the Caribbean and, you know, kind of growing up, I was sort of, you know, more into the STEM subjects, you know, a bit into science and math and so on and so forth. And, you know, it was really my mom that kind of inspired me to actually get into finance in general. But as an 18-year-old, you know, finance is quite nebulous. You don’t know what it means. And so it was when I moved to London to do my master’s degree, started reading up a lot more. And decided that actually I wanted to be an actuary. And at the time in Trinidad, which is where I came from, there were probably only about 4 or so actuaries that were recognized. And so I thought, oh, this is a fantastic career to get into. So I did what all graduates do, I applied for graduate jobs. And at Willis Towers Watson, which is a firm that I’m currently at, you know, I went for the role and I remember my last interview, the people who were interviewing me said, well, know, you we really like you for the firm, ‘But actually, we don’t know if we want you in our pensions department. Actually, what do you think about working in our investments department?’ And you can imagine, as a young graduate, you’re kind of like, ‘Okay, well, this sounds fine, this sounds great.’ And they said, ‘Okay, fine, so we think investment would be great for you because your quote-unquote personality matches it.’ And even up to today, I still don’t know what that means. ‘But would you fancy working in our Leeds office?’ So for me, actually never actually even hearing of Leeds before, it was quite a massive journey. And that’s kind of how I started. It was kind of one of those, those beautiful accidents where, you know, you have people around you that are kind of saying, well, actually, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And the rest is history, really.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, those beautiful environments that we sadly don’t have right now, but I do think probably some of the best ways to learn.
Marisa: Yeah, absolutely.
Aoifinn Devitt: So jumping forward from your role as an actuary into what you’re currently doing at the Thinking Ahead Institute, can you speak a little bit about that role and also the areas that you’re researching right now?
Marisa: Yeah, sure. So after working in Willis Towers Watson in the kind of investment practice, I spent probably about 12 years working as a consultant advising large pension funds and sovereign wealth funds, endowment funds. And I think you’ll probably notice a trend here that actually quite a lot of my career has been through a combination of, yes, things that I want, but actually people kind of saying, well, what do you think about this particular opportunity and that particular opportunity? And I remember there was an email that went around an entire firm saying, we have this role, this not-for-profit research network at the and, institute, you know, we’re looking for somebody to be a senior researcher. And so I applied for the role, and I remember at the time my current boss, Tim Hodgson, saying, okay, actually, we really like you for this role, but what do you think about moving to Reigate? So it was another kind of, okay, well, never heard of Reigate, so let’s move halfway across the country, because it was something that I thought would really make a difference. And, you know, what we do at the Thinking Ahead Institute is we bring together some of the world’s largest asset owners and asset managers to really focus on what we think are some of the big problems. So really around how you mobilize capital to build that sustainable future. And it’s such an amazing experience being able to work directly in that space because some of the challenges of today, you know, issues around sustainability, issues around organizational effectiveness, issues around culture and diversity. These are all topics that are kind of very front of mind for leadership teams. And so it’s an absolute honor to be able to kind of work on those areas. I think when I think about our research agenda, so every year we look at our research agenda, we ask our institutional members and we say, well, what are some of the areas that you want us to work on? What are some of the questions that you may have in your mind, but actually you’re not finding it easy to answer? And I think there are probably 2 big topics that are, I find quite exciting. So I think one is some new research that we’re doing in the Institute on super teams. And what this research is, is that we explore how cognitive diversity, engagement, team competencies and mindsets, how they’re all combined to create these super teams. So teams capable of delivering those exceptional results. And I think our framework for assessing these super teams covers lots of lenses. So it covers cognitive diversity, it covers the culture of inclusion, it covers trust within teams, and it covers how decisions are made and accurate judgment comes from that. So I think the work on what makes your team a super team, being able to deliver those exceptional results, I find fascinating. And probably the kind of second thing is really our work on investing for tomorrow. We know that COP26 is at the end of the year, And we know that financial institutions will be a big part of the agenda, and that’s obviously in part driven by regulation. We see the DWP saying that, you know, at the end of this year, large funds need to have a way of managing climate-related risk and integrating that into their overall risk strategy. And so, you know, the kind of question that we’re researching right now is, well, what do we need as organizations or what do we need as an industry to repurpose or to create in order to have an impact on the climate trajectory. And so those things around sustainability and climate and teams and organizational effectiveness, those are things I think are really quite exciting.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, absolutely. Very, very interesting at this juncture. Would you say if there was to pick any one thing that you think is really exciting that really grabs your attention right now, is there any one out of those topics that you find most compelling?
Marisa: Anything that has to do with people and culture are things that, you know, are quite close to my heart. For a lot of time, we’ve spent quite a lot of our careers trying to master the, the technical side of investment, you know, understanding the numbers. And actually, you know, the more you go on into your career, you realize how much people are everything, and people are very much at the heart of what drives our business. And so I think that our work that involves looking at how we can use that human capital, how we can respect that human capital to deliver better results for stakeholders, for society, for the planet, I think is really important. And so that’s why I think the people side of it probably excites me the most.
Aoifinn Devitt: And looking at your own career, you’ve already had a number of different roles within this arena. What is it you like most about the investment world?
Marisa: I think what I like is the impact that we are able to have on so many people. So as an industry, we control and manage the wealth of, you know, half of the population, directly half of the world’s population, and what we do has an impact on the other half of the population. And I think that’s a really— it’s a heavy heavy responsibility, and with that responsibility comes the need to think about, well, as I said before, what is the impact that we’re having on all of these stakeholders. So I think the thing that I really like is the fact that our jobs are, I find, quite purposeful, quite meaningful, but it comes with quite a lot of responsibility, and that makes me motivates me to kind of get up every morning and think, well, how can I deliver those best outcomes? How can I advocate for change? That’s you really, know, fascinating to me.
Aoifinn Devitt: To the topic of diversity in the investment industry in particular, what are your thoughts on the levels of diversity in it and what do you think we can do about it?
Marisa: Yeah, I know we definitely have a lot of work to do, but I think we have— this is a journey, you know, this isn’t just Okay, well, let’s try and get results by the end of the next quarter. And I think the journey that we’ve taken in the industry is, you know, kind of moving from a position where actually it was all around delivering high performance to actually moving to understand that to deliver that high performance, it’s really around the people. And so how do you build those best teams? How do you get those best people? Well, actually, you have to cast your net as wide as possible. And so diversity is almost a no-brainer, and it’s quite a surprise that I think it’s taken us so long to bring this front of mind, that by actually— by having diverse teams, you are more reflective of your customer base. By having diverse teams, you’re able to build up that collective intelligence. By having diverse teams, you’re ensuring that there is there is justice and there’s fairness as an employer really reflecting those values. So I think diversity is something that is obviously we need to do a lot more, and we can see it not just within investment teams. So we know within investment teams, know, you we’ve got some data here for investment teams that report to us. On average, 17% of the people in those investment teams are female, 22% of them are, you know, from ethnic minority backgrounds. And we know that from an ownership perspective, when we think about women and minority-owned firms, we know that for firms owned by women, actually that’s only 5.2% of the mutual fund universe. And for minority-owned firms, it’s even less, it’s kind of going down to 3.5%. And so we see this kind of case where, Actually, I talked about how the industry is incredibly influential. The industry has a duty and responsibility to stakeholders, yet we’re not representative of the communities that we serve. And that’s, that’s a big problem. And that’s something that we need to do, we need to work on.
Aoifinn Devitt: And one of the things that we’ve actually discussed before, but I’d love you to repeat again your views on this, because I think it’s very interesting. In our attempt to solve the lack of diversity, we tend to think of all kinds of maybe ways to make a difference, whether that be creating incentives around management to create more diversity, tying executive pay to diversity numbers, also maybe to make the case for why diversity makes good sense, why having more women on boards leads to a higher return perhaps. You made a point that that may not necessarily be the right way to approach things, that to be forced to show an economic impact of diversity may in effect be putting too much onus on proving women’s perhaps contribution, when that same contribution is not required to be demonstrated by men.
Marisa: Yeah, no, it’s definitely a double standard. So we’ve built this argument that actually to promote diversity, we need to be able to prove that those from more diverse backgrounds, which tend to be women, which tend to be ethnic minorities, which tend to be people who are younger, or all different aspects of their identity, they have to prove that actually in the numbers that they add value to overall business performance. And I you think, know, the research is quite clear. So we do know that having diversity builds collective intelligence. But you actually, know, what I would like to see more at the heart of organizations is actually, well, this is something that we think is important because we think that actually this is a case of the reflection of our values, the reflection of fairness. You see, the business case for diversity, when organizations overemphasize that, what you’re effectively doing is you’re creating this, this model group of citizens within your organization that everyone else has to prove that they add value value for, add to. Everybody else has to prove their humanity towards. And actually, you know, the question comes about, well, if this is all about optimizing the numbers, then arguably you you know, would, you start from scratch and you would think, well, why would you not have a team full of all women? Or why would you not have a team full of ethnic and all minorities? And this is why the combination matters. Diversity is not something that any one individual owns. Know, You it’s something that as a group we are all part of. So for me, I’m a Black woman. You know, I don’t spend all of my time sitting on my sofa thinking, “Gosh, I’m so diverse,” when I’m sitting in my living room. Actually, that diversity really comes about when I’m in a group setting, and actually when I’m able to you contribute, know, different ideas to the group. And just like how my colleagues are. So I think that this case around, well, actually we need to prove it in the numbers, are actually handicapping a lot of organizations. And actually, we just know, just do it, you know. And so that’s something that, you know, I know we’ve talked about before, but, you know, probably needs to be expressed more broadly throughout the industry, that this is just the right thing to do.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you spoke about the progress we’ve made, and I know that there have been a lot more initiatives around creating better inclusion, and a lot of that is around actually sharing experience. We’ve had some kind of broad, you know, firm-wide Zoom calls you where, know, colleagues from ethnic minorities have shared their experiences maybe of racism, which was perhaps would have been an uncomfortable conversation not so long ago. How do you think that kind of sharing of experience really helps push us forward?
Marisa: Stories are powerful, and your story is your power. And having those anecdotes expressed by everyone, whether it be people who have experienced racism, whether it’s been people who have observed racism, people who have friends or partners that have gone through it, actually it’s really important to hear those narratives. I think for me personally, it was kind of one of those things that for me I only experienced much later on in my life. So, you know, growing up in the Caribbean, you know, particularly growing up in Trinidad, you know, we kind of had a very diverse mix of the population. I was not in the minority, you know. You had leaders who were Black or leaders who were Asian. I came to England to do my master’s, and I remember all of a sudden everybody was interested in my identity. So I moved from a scenario growing up in my life where I was able to express and define my own identity to coming to a place where everybody was just like, well, hold on, who are you? Why are you here? How come you speak English? You know, one of the funny things actually for me was my maiden name is MacDonald. And, you know, everybody, you know, kind of growing up had, you know, anglicized names. Kind of European-based names. And it was only when I started going to client meetings, people were like, but you’re not Scottish, why is your maiden name McDonald? And I was like, well, what is Scottish? What does that have to do with anything? You know, your surname is your surname. And for me, that actually started a journey into my own identity, where for actually, for, you know, a Black person growing up in the Caribbean, because of the history of slavery, you know, there’s no kind of ancestry.com that you can go to where you can trace back hundreds and hundreds of years to find out who your ancestors were, you were very much given the name of whoever owned the plantation. And so that was, that was really a kind of powerful experience for me where I spent a lot of time saying, wow, you know, my surname is McDonald because it is what it is and it doesn’t define who I am. And I think that was a difficult conversation for a lot of people to to kind of get their heads around. I think the other thing that, you know, going to my first experience of racism was really around when I was a graduate all those many years ago in Leeds, and I remember walking into work you and, know, walking past somebody and the person was like, “Oh, well, go back to Africa,” and my first thought was, “Well, I’m not from Africa, so that’s odd.” I think it was, you know, I went into work and I was a little bit shaken up from that and I spoke to my boss And my boss was like, know, you he he was, was so sympathetic, and he was very much like, know, you this is not something that hopefully I’ll experience, but it is a reality. And the fact that as a society we can accept that racism is just a reality, it’s just a thing that you have to go through, to me is something that we have to do something around it. It’s like violence against women. At some point, we have to stop accepting that this is the norm, this is just something that happens to people, and actually stand up and advocate and challenge that norm. My own experiences of, you know, racism, people saying, “Well, oh no, but you’re the exception, you know, you’re or, “Oh, surely, you educated,” know, you’re, you’re, you’re different,” because I speak English or because I have a university degree. Well, I’m not different. I am who I am. I’m Marissa. And I think just having those conversations with colleagues really opens up their eyes to, wow, okay, this is something that even the person sitting next to you can experience. So really, really, really powerful. And probably just one more on that, you know, I talk about not just people who have experienced racism, but actually people who have observed or been a part of it. And I remember it was a few years ago speaking back to one of my colleagues from South Africa, and he was telling me the story about how when he grew up— he grew up in kind of apartheid South Africa— he grew up and he went to school, and all of a sudden there was a flurry at school and the principal said, well, you know, everybody needs to go home. And there was a threat that was going out that said, well, basically, if you’re white then that was the day when somebody was going to attack you because you’re white. And as a young boy, that shaped for a very, very long time his view on people who were Black. It shaped that, his— you know, he could not be safe around people who did not look like him. And actually, it was only through traveling the world, through getting that broadening of experiences, that actually changed his own view. And so we have to recognize that everybody has a history, everybody has a background, everybody has a legacy. And so it’s only through those open conversations and those dialogues that we can actually start understanding, well, where do you— you know, do where we come from on this view? And so really trying to know your stance, understand your own views on racism is something that’s a really important kind of self-reflection that you need to have.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s really powerful. Thank you very much for that. Looking now at some of the younger people entering the industry, I know that you work with Investment 2020. How do you think that programs like that are central to solving some of the industry’s diversity challenges?
Marisa: I’m incredibly proud to be part of the standing committee for Investment 2020. I you think, know, we’ve seen it over the last year. 2020, wow, what a year. And particularly for graduates and school leavers, know, you they’re facing probably the toughest recruitment market, I think, in recent times. I think there was a note in Financial Times that actually only 1 in 5 graduates secured jobs before graduating last year, and that’s a kind of 60% drop compared to pre-COVID levels. And it’s not just in terms of the job market, it’s also you around, know, just disruptions to exams, it’s around disruption to learning, the mental health crisis that young people are facing. I know through my own experience, I’ve got 2 young ones actually who homeschooling has been incredibly hard for them. That feeling of, well, wait a minute, are we behind? Are we understanding? And particularly when you have a 6-year-old young boy, it’s 10 minutes concentration on Zoom is pretty much all you’re going to get at any given point in time. And so Investment 2020 was really driven by that mission to bring more diverse talent into all aspects of our investment industry. And so the work that we do with school leavers, the work that we do for apprenticeships or the trainee program where we work with young people and we say, well, actually, here’s a job for a year within an investment firm, get that experience, I think is incredibly important. And we also support, you know, the government has its Kickstart program, which is, you know, a program for 16 to 24-year-olds on universal credit. That we can support that and work with investment organizations to offer roles to these young people so that they can get their, their foot in the door. And so we talk about when we’re trying to hire people into our organization, we talk about, well, oh, there’s no pipeline, or we don’t have enough diversity. But actually, that’s not good enough, and we can see that. Actually, what we need to do is we need to search for it. We need to widen our criteria. We need to change our mental models of what is the fit in our organization, because talent can come from anywhere. And actually looking at a young, young person and seeing that how they’ve had to, to overcome adversity, I think is a skill set that actually within the investment industry is something that we sorely need. So really proud of, you know, the work that we do in Investment 2020, the way that we’re able to kind of reach out to them on platforms platforms like social media and Instagram to really engage and showcase opportunities and reach such a wide range of students, I think it’s really powerful to get that, that next generation of investment professionals into our businesses.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I know in the US where they spend a lot of time looking and trying to attract first-generation college students, there is unfortunately a high dropout rate after the first year because getting them in the door is only one part of the equation. Ensuring that they thrive is often the other part which has been overlooked for many years. In the Invest in 2020 program, how do you ensure that the students who do come in are set up for success?
Marisa: Yes, I think it’s a really good point. And, you know, it’s not just around these hard technical skills, but actually quite a lot of getting into an organization, which is why we offer these opportunities, is around softer skills. So skills around communication, skills around presentations, skills around how you build those relationships and connect with people. And so building up these, these young people for success, actually through, yes, training them within, okay, this is the day-to-day of the operation, but actually showing them how to really connect with people and build those relationships is incredibly important. I think mentoring is a very, very strong part of it. So part of the work that I do with the diversity project as part of Talk About Black is you that, know, every month we run mentoring circles where young people can, you know, sit down and ask us anything. So there’ll be a panel of more senior people within the industry, and then we’ll say, well, you know what, just anything. And I remember sitting down, it was kind of pre-COVID crisis, it was sitting down in a meeting room, and we probably had about 20 of these young people who are kind of in the first 7 years of their career. And one student in particular, she was just talking about some of the challenges that she faced within her own you firm, know, challenges where people were like, oh, well, you speak too loudly, or, oh no, you can’t eat that in the office, you can’t eat KFC in the office because we eat Pret you here, know, and her feeling incredibly out of place. And that was incredibly eye-opening for me. Because I think what happens is that when you are in a firm, and you you’ve had a relatively, you know, you like the people that you work with, you admire the people that you’re surrounded by, you almost forget that actually for quite a lot of people, they are feeling out of place, they’re feeling as if they can’t contribute, they’re feeling as if they don’t belong here, and that’s something that we need to fix. It was part of Investment 2020’s Think Investment programme one year, and I had a young girl who came into our offices in Lime and, Street, you know, she had a coat know, on, and, you everybody, you know, was trying to be very nice, and they said, oh, you know, you could put your coat in the cloakroom, you know, just put it down there, it’s fine, we can walk around the building and do the tour, and she refused to take her coat off, and at the end of the day, I was having a wash-up with her, and I said, you know, how did you find the day, was everything okay, and she said to me, everyone here is dressed so nicely, and I’m embarrassed about what I’m wearing, that linked to why she didn’t want to take her coat off. And we have to not forget that these tall glass buildings in the city, the way that we go into offices, can be incredibly intimidating. And actually breaking down some of those barriers where it doesn’t really matter how you dress, it doesn’t matter kind of where you come from, I think is part of our duty if we’re trying to get a broadened range of talent within our industry.
Aoifinn Devitt: So much to unpack there and consider. Thank you very much for that. In talking about your own career, you’ve spoken about a lot of people who seem to have seen an opportunity for you and encouraged you and you maybe, know, even pushed you towards it, which actually is probably quite a benefit, and not everybody is lucky enough to have that. When you look back at your career, have there been key people, whether in your career environment or your family life, that have really made a difference in.
Marisa: How I think probably the first thing to say is that I’m very wary of, you know, kind of what I’d call hero worshiping. It’s one of those things where actually you can get learning from almost anyone. You can get something that you learn about from the youngest of graduates to the most seasoned professional within the industry. Actually, And so when I think about people who have influenced me quite a lot along the way, actually it’s snippets from lots of people. So for example, that young lady that I was just speaking about with her coat, that influenced me because when I think about young people who are entering our industry, my heart burns for them. It really goes out for them because then I’m thinking, gosh, this can be quite an intimidating environment. And so that’s impacted kind of the work that I do with Investment 2020, the work that I do with Talk About Black, really trying to bring in that next generation of investment professionals. I think probably more you traditionally, know, within my own organization, I you think, know, I work with somebody wonderful. It’s Roger Irwin, who started the investment practice at Willis Watson, Towers you know, many years ago. And he’s also co-founder of the Thinking Ahead Institute, which is the organization that I work in now. What’s so inspiring about him amongst many things, actually, is how much he lives this, this idea of servant leadership, this idea around caring and kindness, has time for everyone. He will sit down and goodness knows how many people he, he sits down and mentors with, but this idea that he sits down and he, he’s kind of the first one in in the morning, he’s kind of the last one out in the afternoon, really kind of promoting this need for You know, just taking care of your colleagues and understanding mental health issues, I think, is something that I found very inspiring. I think when I think about other people throughout, you know, even my own immediate colleagues, the quirkiness of thought, you know, like Tim Hodgson, who’s my current manager actually, that willingness to be able to experiment with crazy new ideas that innovation within his thinking process, I think, is something that I’ve picked up because it’s like, well, be prepared to be able to fail because that can lead on to bigger and better things. And probably if I think about, you know, my mom as being probably the greatest influence within, within my life, that constant prayer, that constant support and guidance that she’s, she’s given me over the years, even though she’s so many thousands of miles away in Trinidad, And I know that with her, she’s always thinking about, well, how are you? Are you okay? Know, You is there anything that I can do even though I’m so far away? And even through her own example of— she’s an academic, she works in a university— her discipline in how she works, her, her work ethic is, is tremendous and incredible. And so that’s always inspiring because I’ve, I’ve got a woman who is quite powerful and incredibly strong, and I think that’s That’s something that I really admire. So lots lots of, of little, little experiences, I think, that have influenced me from, from new people to older people. And I think that’s what I would encourage for everybody. Just, just look out for those, those areas that you’re able to learn because they’re everywhere.
Aoifinn Devitt: And my last question is whether you have any creed or motto that you live by, any pieces of advice that you’ve picked up from some of these people or developed for yourself?
Marisa: So I think of late the Serenity Prayer has, has been um, quite, quite close to my heart, you know, just being able to think about the things, accept the things that you can’t change, and having that courage and that wisdom to change the things that you can and know the difference. And, you know, that’s in a year where we’ve had COVID, actually it has been incredibly calming for me because, you know, there’s so much going on It’s a healthcare crisis, it’s a humanity crisis, it’s, you know, has affected so many people in such personal ways. And so actually thinking about every day the little things that you can do to actually help or make a change is actually really important, and being able to understand, well, okay, here are things that I can’t do, but I can think about it and I you know, I can, can work with others and I’ll, you know, just just pray about it, I think, are things that are really important. I think finding purpose in your work really matters, and I get quite a lot of that at the Thinking Edge Institute. Thinking about how you can contribute to something bigger than yourself, because there comes a point in time in your career where actually it’s less about your advancement in your career and more about, well, what is the impact that you’re having? And so I think just being able to build that network with other people in the industry has been quite important to me. Being able to work together with others to be able to make those differences, either through Investment 2020, the Diversity Project, through many different forums within my organization, outside of the organization, has allowed me to, to be, I think, a more purposeful investment professional. And that’s gives me a lot of motivation and a lot of drive every day that I come to work.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much, Marisa. You really do embody the concept of servant leadership, and I think it’s all very well for us to read about empathy and the importance of having it, but I think in this podcast you really have given us a master class in what it means to be empathetic through sketching some of these vignettes of the people you work with and the people you help in areas such as Investment 2020. So I don’t think there’s anything that we can really use to replace that. So thank you so much for sharing your insights here with us.
Marisa: Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice. And all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: This podcast was made possible by the kind support of Speaking with Images, a firm focused on motivational speaking, increasing resilience, improving communication, and building better workplace cultures.
Marisa: And she said to me, everyone here is dressed so nicely, and I’m embarrassed about what I’m wearing. That linked to why she didn’t want to take her coat off. And we have to not forget that these tall glass buildings in the city The way that we go into offices can be incredibly intimidating, and actually breaking down some of those barriers where it doesn’t really matter how you dress, it doesn’t matter kind of where you come from, I think is part of our duty if we’re trying to get a broadened range of talent within our industry.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces Podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Marissa Hall, who is co-head of the Thinking Ahead Institute at Willis Towers Watson, where she has spent most of her career, starting initially as an investment consultant. She was named Woman of the Year in the 2020 Women in Finance Summit and Awards series and was on the 2020 list of Financial News Rising Stars in Asset Management in Europe. She’s a member of the steering committee of the Diversity Project in its ethnicity work stream and is a standing committee member of Investment 2020. Welcome, Marisa, thanks for joining me today.
Marisa: Thank you so much, it’s an absolute pleasure to be here.
Aoifinn Devitt: So let’s start with your background and how you ended up pursuing a role in investment.
Marisa: So gosh, it was quite interesting. So I am originally from the Caribbean and, you know, kind of growing up, I was sort of, you know, more into the STEM subjects, you know, a bit into science and math and so on and so forth. And, you know, it was really my mom that kind of inspired me to actually get into finance in general. But as an 18-year-old, you know, finance is quite nebulous. You don’t know what it means. And so it was when I moved to London to do my master’s degree, started reading up a lot more. And decided that actually I wanted to be an actuary. And at the time in Trinidad, which is where I came from, there were probably only about 4 or so actuaries that were recognized. And so I thought, oh, this is a fantastic career to get into. So I did what all graduates do, I applied for graduate jobs. And at Willis Towers Watson, which is a firm that I’m currently at, you know, I went for the role and I remember my last interview, the people who were interviewing me said, well, know, you we really like you for the firm, ‘But actually, we don’t know if we want you in our pensions department. Actually, what do you think about working in our investments department?’ And you can imagine, as a young graduate, you’re kind of like, ‘Okay, well, this sounds fine, this sounds great.’ And they said, ‘Okay, fine, so we think investment would be great for you because your quote-unquote personality matches it.’ And even up to today, I still don’t know what that means. ‘But would you fancy working in our Leeds office?’ So for me, actually never actually even hearing of Leeds before, it was quite a massive journey. And that’s kind of how I started. It was kind of one of those, those beautiful accidents where, you know, you have people around you that are kind of saying, well, actually, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And the rest is history, really.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, those beautiful environments that we sadly don’t have right now, but I do think probably some of the best ways to learn.
Marisa: Yeah, absolutely.
Aoifinn Devitt: So jumping forward from your role as an actuary into what you’re currently doing at the Thinking Ahead Institute, can you speak a little bit about that role and also the areas that you’re researching right now?
Marisa: Yeah, sure. So after working in Willis Towers Watson in the kind of investment practice, I spent probably about 12 years working as a consultant advising large pension funds and sovereign wealth funds, endowment funds. And I think you’ll probably notice a trend here that actually quite a lot of my career has been through a combination of, yes, things that I want, but actually people kind of saying, well, what do you think about this particular opportunity and that particular opportunity? And I remember there was an email that went around an entire firm saying, we have this role, this not-for-profit research network at the and, institute, you know, we’re looking for somebody to be a senior researcher. And so I applied for the role, and I remember at the time my current boss, Tim Hodgson, saying, okay, actually, we really like you for this role, but what do you think about moving to Reigate? So it was another kind of, okay, well, never heard of Reigate, so let’s move halfway across the country, because it was something that I thought would really make a difference. And, you know, what we do at the Thinking Ahead Institute is we bring together some of the world’s largest asset owners and asset managers to really focus on what we think are some of the big problems. So really around how you mobilize capital to build that sustainable future. And it’s such an amazing experience being able to work directly in that space because some of the challenges of today, you know, issues around sustainability, issues around organizational effectiveness, issues around culture and diversity. These are all topics that are kind of very front of mind for leadership teams. And so it’s an absolute honor to be able to kind of work on those areas. I think when I think about our research agenda, so every year we look at our research agenda, we ask our institutional members and we say, well, what are some of the areas that you want us to work on? What are some of the questions that you may have in your mind, but actually you’re not finding it easy to answer? And I think there are probably 2 big topics that are, I find quite exciting. So I think one is some new research that we’re doing in the Institute on super teams. And what this research is, is that we explore how cognitive diversity, engagement, team competencies and mindsets, how they’re all combined to create these super teams. So teams capable of delivering those exceptional results. And I think our framework for assessing these super teams covers lots of lenses. So it covers cognitive diversity, it covers the culture of inclusion, it covers trust within teams, and it covers how decisions are made and accurate judgment comes from that. So I think the work on what makes your team a super team, being able to deliver those exceptional results, I find fascinating. And probably the kind of second thing is really our work on investing for tomorrow. We know that COP26 is at the end of the year, And we know that financial institutions will be a big part of the agenda, and that’s obviously in part driven by regulation. We see the DWP saying that, you know, at the end of this year, large funds need to have a way of managing climate-related risk and integrating that into their overall risk strategy. And so, you know, the kind of question that we’re researching right now is, well, what do we need as organizations or what do we need as an industry to repurpose or to create in order to have an impact on the climate trajectory. And so those things around sustainability and climate and teams and organizational effectiveness, those are things I think are really quite exciting.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, absolutely. Very, very interesting at this juncture. Would you say if there was to pick any one thing that you think is really exciting that really grabs your attention right now, is there any one out of those topics that you find most compelling?
Marisa: Anything that has to do with people and culture are things that, you know, are quite close to my heart. For a lot of time, we’ve spent quite a lot of our careers trying to master the, the technical side of investment, you know, understanding the numbers. And actually, you know, the more you go on into your career, you realize how much people are everything, and people are very much at the heart of what drives our business. And so I think that our work that involves looking at how we can use that human capital, how we can respect that human capital to deliver better results for stakeholders, for society, for the planet, I think is really important. And so that’s why I think the people side of it probably excites me the most.
Aoifinn Devitt: And looking at your own career, you’ve already had a number of different roles within this arena. What is it you like most about the investment world?
Marisa: I think what I like is the impact that we are able to have on so many people. So as an industry, we control and manage the wealth of, you know, half of the population, directly half of the world’s population, and what we do has an impact on the other half of the population. And I think that’s a really— it’s a heavy heavy responsibility, and with that responsibility comes the need to think about, well, as I said before, what is the impact that we’re having on all of these stakeholders. So I think the thing that I really like is the fact that our jobs are, I find, quite purposeful, quite meaningful, but it comes with quite a lot of responsibility, and that makes me motivates me to kind of get up every morning and think, well, how can I deliver those best outcomes? How can I advocate for change? That’s you really, know, fascinating to me.
Aoifinn Devitt: To the topic of diversity in the investment industry in particular, what are your thoughts on the levels of diversity in it and what do you think we can do about it?
Marisa: Yeah, I know we definitely have a lot of work to do, but I think we have— this is a journey, you know, this isn’t just Okay, well, let’s try and get results by the end of the next quarter. And I think the journey that we’ve taken in the industry is, you know, kind of moving from a position where actually it was all around delivering high performance to actually moving to understand that to deliver that high performance, it’s really around the people. And so how do you build those best teams? How do you get those best people? Well, actually, you have to cast your net as wide as possible. And so diversity is almost a no-brainer, and it’s quite a surprise that I think it’s taken us so long to bring this front of mind, that by actually— by having diverse teams, you are more reflective of your customer base. By having diverse teams, you’re able to build up that collective intelligence. By having diverse teams, you’re ensuring that there is there is justice and there’s fairness as an employer really reflecting those values. So I think diversity is something that is obviously we need to do a lot more, and we can see it not just within investment teams. So we know within investment teams, know, you we’ve got some data here for investment teams that report to us. On average, 17% of the people in those investment teams are female, 22% of them are, you know, from ethnic minority backgrounds. And we know that from an ownership perspective, when we think about women and minority-owned firms, we know that for firms owned by women, actually that’s only 5.2% of the mutual fund universe. And for minority-owned firms, it’s even less, it’s kind of going down to 3.5%. And so we see this kind of case where, Actually, I talked about how the industry is incredibly influential. The industry has a duty and responsibility to stakeholders, yet we’re not representative of the communities that we serve. And that’s, that’s a big problem. And that’s something that we need to do, we need to work on.
Aoifinn Devitt: And one of the things that we’ve actually discussed before, but I’d love you to repeat again your views on this, because I think it’s very interesting. In our attempt to solve the lack of diversity, we tend to think of all kinds of maybe ways to make a difference, whether that be creating incentives around management to create more diversity, tying executive pay to diversity numbers, also maybe to make the case for why diversity makes good sense, why having more women on boards leads to a higher return perhaps. You made a point that that may not necessarily be the right way to approach things, that to be forced to show an economic impact of diversity may in effect be putting too much onus on proving women’s perhaps contribution, when that same contribution is not required to be demonstrated by men.
Marisa: Yeah, no, it’s definitely a double standard. So we’ve built this argument that actually to promote diversity, we need to be able to prove that those from more diverse backgrounds, which tend to be women, which tend to be ethnic minorities, which tend to be people who are younger, or all different aspects of their identity, they have to prove that actually in the numbers that they add value to overall business performance. And I you think, know, the research is quite clear. So we do know that having diversity builds collective intelligence. But you actually, know, what I would like to see more at the heart of organizations is actually, well, this is something that we think is important because we think that actually this is a case of the reflection of our values, the reflection of fairness. You see, the business case for diversity, when organizations overemphasize that, what you’re effectively doing is you’re creating this, this model group of citizens within your organization that everyone else has to prove that they add value value for, add to. Everybody else has to prove their humanity towards. And actually, you know, the question comes about, well, if this is all about optimizing the numbers, then arguably you you know, would, you start from scratch and you would think, well, why would you not have a team full of all women? Or why would you not have a team full of ethnic and all minorities? And this is why the combination matters. Diversity is not something that any one individual owns. Know, You it’s something that as a group we are all part of. So for me, I’m a Black woman. You know, I don’t spend all of my time sitting on my sofa thinking, “Gosh, I’m so diverse,” when I’m sitting in my living room. Actually, that diversity really comes about when I’m in a group setting, and actually when I’m able to you contribute, know, different ideas to the group. And just like how my colleagues are. So I think that this case around, well, actually we need to prove it in the numbers, are actually handicapping a lot of organizations. And actually, we just know, just do it, you know. And so that’s something that, you know, I know we’ve talked about before, but, you know, probably needs to be expressed more broadly throughout the industry, that this is just the right thing to do.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you spoke about the progress we’ve made, and I know that there have been a lot more initiatives around creating better inclusion, and a lot of that is around actually sharing experience. We’ve had some kind of broad, you know, firm-wide Zoom calls you where, know, colleagues from ethnic minorities have shared their experiences maybe of racism, which was perhaps would have been an uncomfortable conversation not so long ago. How do you think that kind of sharing of experience really helps push us forward?
Marisa: Stories are powerful, and your story is your power. And having those anecdotes expressed by everyone, whether it be people who have experienced racism, whether it’s been people who have observed racism, people who have friends or partners that have gone through it, actually it’s really important to hear those narratives. I think for me personally, it was kind of one of those things that for me I only experienced much later on in my life. So, you know, growing up in the Caribbean, you know, particularly growing up in Trinidad, you know, we kind of had a very diverse mix of the population. I was not in the minority, you know. You had leaders who were Black or leaders who were Asian. I came to England to do my master’s, and I remember all of a sudden everybody was interested in my identity. So I moved from a scenario growing up in my life where I was able to express and define my own identity to coming to a place where everybody was just like, well, hold on, who are you? Why are you here? How come you speak English? You know, one of the funny things actually for me was my maiden name is MacDonald. And, you know, everybody, you know, kind of growing up had, you know, anglicized names. Kind of European-based names. And it was only when I started going to client meetings, people were like, but you’re not Scottish, why is your maiden name McDonald? And I was like, well, what is Scottish? What does that have to do with anything? You know, your surname is your surname. And for me, that actually started a journey into my own identity, where for actually, for, you know, a Black person growing up in the Caribbean, because of the history of slavery, you know, there’s no kind of ancestry.com that you can go to where you can trace back hundreds and hundreds of years to find out who your ancestors were, you were very much given the name of whoever owned the plantation. And so that was, that was really a kind of powerful experience for me where I spent a lot of time saying, wow, you know, my surname is McDonald because it is what it is and it doesn’t define who I am. And I think that was a difficult conversation for a lot of people to to kind of get their heads around. I think the other thing that, you know, going to my first experience of racism was really around when I was a graduate all those many years ago in Leeds, and I remember walking into work you and, know, walking past somebody and the person was like, “Oh, well, go back to Africa,” and my first thought was, “Well, I’m not from Africa, so that’s odd.” I think it was, you know, I went into work and I was a little bit shaken up from that and I spoke to my boss And my boss was like, know, you he he was, was so sympathetic, and he was very much like, know, you this is not something that hopefully I’ll experience, but it is a reality. And the fact that as a society we can accept that racism is just a reality, it’s just a thing that you have to go through, to me is something that we have to do something around it. It’s like violence against women. At some point, we have to stop accepting that this is the norm, this is just something that happens to people, and actually stand up and advocate and challenge that norm. My own experiences of, you know, racism, people saying, “Well, oh no, but you’re the exception, you know, you’re or, “Oh, surely, you educated,” know, you’re, you’re, you’re different,” because I speak English or because I have a university degree. Well, I’m not different. I am who I am. I’m Marissa. And I think just having those conversations with colleagues really opens up their eyes to, wow, okay, this is something that even the person sitting next to you can experience. So really, really, really powerful. And probably just one more on that, you know, I talk about not just people who have experienced racism, but actually people who have observed or been a part of it. And I remember it was a few years ago speaking back to one of my colleagues from South Africa, and he was telling me the story about how when he grew up— he grew up in kind of apartheid South Africa— he grew up and he went to school, and all of a sudden there was a flurry at school and the principal said, well, you know, everybody needs to go home. And there was a threat that was going out that said, well, basically, if you’re white then that was the day when somebody was going to attack you because you’re white. And as a young boy, that shaped for a very, very long time his view on people who were Black. It shaped that, his— you know, he could not be safe around people who did not look like him. And actually, it was only through traveling the world, through getting that broadening of experiences, that actually changed his own view. And so we have to recognize that everybody has a history, everybody has a background, everybody has a legacy. And so it’s only through those open conversations and those dialogues that we can actually start understanding, well, where do you— you know, do where we come from on this view? And so really trying to know your stance, understand your own views on racism is something that’s a really important kind of self-reflection that you need to have.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s really powerful. Thank you very much for that. Looking now at some of the younger people entering the industry, I know that you work with Investment 2020. How do you think that programs like that are central to solving some of the industry’s diversity challenges?
Marisa: I’m incredibly proud to be part of the standing committee for Investment 2020. I you think, know, we’ve seen it over the last year. 2020, wow, what a year. And particularly for graduates and school leavers, know, you they’re facing probably the toughest recruitment market, I think, in recent times. I think there was a note in Financial Times that actually only 1 in 5 graduates secured jobs before graduating last year, and that’s a kind of 60% drop compared to pre-COVID levels. And it’s not just in terms of the job market, it’s also you around, know, just disruptions to exams, it’s around disruption to learning, the mental health crisis that young people are facing. I know through my own experience, I’ve got 2 young ones actually who homeschooling has been incredibly hard for them. That feeling of, well, wait a minute, are we behind? Are we understanding? And particularly when you have a 6-year-old young boy, it’s 10 minutes concentration on Zoom is pretty much all you’re going to get at any given point in time. And so Investment 2020 was really driven by that mission to bring more diverse talent into all aspects of our investment industry. And so the work that we do with school leavers, the work that we do for apprenticeships or the trainee program where we work with young people and we say, well, actually, here’s a job for a year within an investment firm, get that experience, I think is incredibly important. And we also support, you know, the government has its Kickstart program, which is, you know, a program for 16 to 24-year-olds on universal credit. That we can support that and work with investment organizations to offer roles to these young people so that they can get their, their foot in the door. And so we talk about when we’re trying to hire people into our organization, we talk about, well, oh, there’s no pipeline, or we don’t have enough diversity. But actually, that’s not good enough, and we can see that. Actually, what we need to do is we need to search for it. We need to widen our criteria. We need to change our mental models of what is the fit in our organization, because talent can come from anywhere. And actually looking at a young, young person and seeing that how they’ve had to, to overcome adversity, I think is a skill set that actually within the investment industry is something that we sorely need. So really proud of, you know, the work that we do in Investment 2020, the way that we’re able to kind of reach out to them on platforms platforms like social media and Instagram to really engage and showcase opportunities and reach such a wide range of students, I think it’s really powerful to get that, that next generation of investment professionals into our businesses.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I know in the US where they spend a lot of time looking and trying to attract first-generation college students, there is unfortunately a high dropout rate after the first year because getting them in the door is only one part of the equation. Ensuring that they thrive is often the other part which has been overlooked for many years. In the Invest in 2020 program, how do you ensure that the students who do come in are set up for success?
Marisa: Yes, I think it’s a really good point. And, you know, it’s not just around these hard technical skills, but actually quite a lot of getting into an organization, which is why we offer these opportunities, is around softer skills. So skills around communication, skills around presentations, skills around how you build those relationships and connect with people. And so building up these, these young people for success, actually through, yes, training them within, okay, this is the day-to-day of the operation, but actually showing them how to really connect with people and build those relationships is incredibly important. I think mentoring is a very, very strong part of it. So part of the work that I do with the diversity project as part of Talk About Black is you that, know, every month we run mentoring circles where young people can, you know, sit down and ask us anything. So there’ll be a panel of more senior people within the industry, and then we’ll say, well, you know what, just anything. And I remember sitting down, it was kind of pre-COVID crisis, it was sitting down in a meeting room, and we probably had about 20 of these young people who are kind of in the first 7 years of their career. And one student in particular, she was just talking about some of the challenges that she faced within her own you firm, know, challenges where people were like, oh, well, you speak too loudly, or, oh no, you can’t eat that in the office, you can’t eat KFC in the office because we eat Pret you here, know, and her feeling incredibly out of place. And that was incredibly eye-opening for me. Because I think what happens is that when you are in a firm, and you you’ve had a relatively, you know, you like the people that you work with, you admire the people that you’re surrounded by, you almost forget that actually for quite a lot of people, they are feeling out of place, they’re feeling as if they can’t contribute, they’re feeling as if they don’t belong here, and that’s something that we need to fix. It was part of Investment 2020’s Think Investment programme one year, and I had a young girl who came into our offices in Lime and, Street, you know, she had a coat know, on, and, you everybody, you know, was trying to be very nice, and they said, oh, you know, you could put your coat in the cloakroom, you know, just put it down there, it’s fine, we can walk around the building and do the tour, and she refused to take her coat off, and at the end of the day, I was having a wash-up with her, and I said, you know, how did you find the day, was everything okay, and she said to me, everyone here is dressed so nicely, and I’m embarrassed about what I’m wearing, that linked to why she didn’t want to take her coat off. And we have to not forget that these tall glass buildings in the city, the way that we go into offices, can be incredibly intimidating. And actually breaking down some of those barriers where it doesn’t really matter how you dress, it doesn’t matter kind of where you come from, I think is part of our duty if we’re trying to get a broadened range of talent within our industry.
Aoifinn Devitt: So much to unpack there and consider. Thank you very much for that. In talking about your own career, you’ve spoken about a lot of people who seem to have seen an opportunity for you and encouraged you and you maybe, know, even pushed you towards it, which actually is probably quite a benefit, and not everybody is lucky enough to have that. When you look back at your career, have there been key people, whether in your career environment or your family life, that have really made a difference in.
Marisa: How I think probably the first thing to say is that I’m very wary of, you know, kind of what I’d call hero worshiping. It’s one of those things where actually you can get learning from almost anyone. You can get something that you learn about from the youngest of graduates to the most seasoned professional within the industry. Actually, And so when I think about people who have influenced me quite a lot along the way, actually it’s snippets from lots of people. So for example, that young lady that I was just speaking about with her coat, that influenced me because when I think about young people who are entering our industry, my heart burns for them. It really goes out for them because then I’m thinking, gosh, this can be quite an intimidating environment. And so that’s impacted kind of the work that I do with Investment 2020, the work that I do with Talk About Black, really trying to bring in that next generation of investment professionals. I think probably more you traditionally, know, within my own organization, I you think, know, I work with somebody wonderful. It’s Roger Irwin, who started the investment practice at Willis Watson, Towers you know, many years ago. And he’s also co-founder of the Thinking Ahead Institute, which is the organization that I work in now. What’s so inspiring about him amongst many things, actually, is how much he lives this, this idea of servant leadership, this idea around caring and kindness, has time for everyone. He will sit down and goodness knows how many people he, he sits down and mentors with, but this idea that he sits down and he, he’s kind of the first one in in the morning, he’s kind of the last one out in the afternoon, really kind of promoting this need for You know, just taking care of your colleagues and understanding mental health issues, I think, is something that I found very inspiring. I think when I think about other people throughout, you know, even my own immediate colleagues, the quirkiness of thought, you know, like Tim Hodgson, who’s my current manager actually, that willingness to be able to experiment with crazy new ideas that innovation within his thinking process, I think, is something that I’ve picked up because it’s like, well, be prepared to be able to fail because that can lead on to bigger and better things. And probably if I think about, you know, my mom as being probably the greatest influence within, within my life, that constant prayer, that constant support and guidance that she’s, she’s given me over the years, even though she’s so many thousands of miles away in Trinidad, And I know that with her, she’s always thinking about, well, how are you? Are you okay? Know, You is there anything that I can do even though I’m so far away? And even through her own example of— she’s an academic, she works in a university— her discipline in how she works, her, her work ethic is, is tremendous and incredible. And so that’s always inspiring because I’ve, I’ve got a woman who is quite powerful and incredibly strong, and I think that’s That’s something that I really admire. So lots lots of, of little, little experiences, I think, that have influenced me from, from new people to older people. And I think that’s what I would encourage for everybody. Just, just look out for those, those areas that you’re able to learn because they’re everywhere.
Aoifinn Devitt: And my last question is whether you have any creed or motto that you live by, any pieces of advice that you’ve picked up from some of these people or developed for yourself?
Marisa: So I think of late the Serenity Prayer has, has been um, quite, quite close to my heart, you know, just being able to think about the things, accept the things that you can’t change, and having that courage and that wisdom to change the things that you can and know the difference. And, you know, that’s in a year where we’ve had COVID, actually it has been incredibly calming for me because, you know, there’s so much going on It’s a healthcare crisis, it’s a humanity crisis, it’s, you know, has affected so many people in such personal ways. And so actually thinking about every day the little things that you can do to actually help or make a change is actually really important, and being able to understand, well, okay, here are things that I can’t do, but I can think about it and I you know, I can, can work with others and I’ll, you know, just just pray about it, I think, are things that are really important. I think finding purpose in your work really matters, and I get quite a lot of that at the Thinking Edge Institute. Thinking about how you can contribute to something bigger than yourself, because there comes a point in time in your career where actually it’s less about your advancement in your career and more about, well, what is the impact that you’re having? And so I think just being able to build that network with other people in the industry has been quite important to me. Being able to work together with others to be able to make those differences, either through Investment 2020, the Diversity Project, through many different forums within my organization, outside of the organization, has allowed me to, to be, I think, a more purposeful investment professional. And that’s gives me a lot of motivation and a lot of drive every day that I come to work.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much, Marisa. You really do embody the concept of servant leadership, and I think it’s all very well for us to read about empathy and the importance of having it, but I think in this podcast you really have given us a master class in what it means to be empathetic through sketching some of these vignettes of the people you work with and the people you help in areas such as Investment 2020. So I don’t think there’s anything that we can really use to replace that. So thank you so much for sharing your insights here with us.
Marisa: Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice. And all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
