Aoifinn Devitt: One other huge challenge for me personally are the glass ceilings. I you think, know, I’ve had to leave firms that I’ve loved working at because of these glass ceilings that just seem impossible to get through.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Our next guest has had an extraordinary life journey that has helped her to build resilience and a deep empathy. Find out how she is using this insight together with her power of communication to change the industry for the better. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Angie Kang Stewart, who is Global Head of Marketing at Man Group, based in their London office. She previously held a series of senior marketing roles and previously business development roles throughout the investment industry and is a member of the Board of Trustees of Nova New Opportunities. Welcome, Angie. Thank you for joining me today.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you for having me, Aoifinn.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Let’s start by talking about your background, where you grew up, what you studied, and how you came to enter the world of investing.
Aoifinn Devitt: Sure. So I was born to Indian parents in West London, growing up in a close-knit Sikh community. Both my parents were immigrants. My dad came over in the ’50s, so very much a part of the early immigration movement from India. He was one of the first in his family to attend university. My mother came over here when she got married. So like most immigrants, you know, they were challenged with kind of getting work, economic wealth. So we lived in lots of estates growing up in West London. So White City, they even squatted at one stage off the Fulham Road, but eventually we settled in Hayes. In West London, which is a very working-class area. Having attended so many different schools before the age of 7, I actually couldn’t read at the age of 7, which was recognized at Yedding Junior School, which was a phenomenal school, state school, and they really took effort to teach me to read and invested in my education and really got me engaged in academics. So, I really felt like I was one of the lucky ones during those years. I would say, you know, like most Asian children at that time, know, you we did experience some overt racism growing up, very different to what we see today in my own children’s experience. And my parents recognized that they really wanted to invest in our education. And as they became more successful, they made the decision to send us all to private school. So I feel very privileged that I had these parents, although not wealthy, spent every penny they had on their children’s education. And my father himself, you know, very different maybe for some of his generation, really wanted his daughters to have equal opportunity, to be able to do whatever we wanted to really. He really was an inspiration to me, supported my dreams, whether I wanted to be an astronaut one week or a doctor the next. So it was, it was very refreshing. However, when I was 19, I met my husband who is Jamaican, say Black British, Jamaican descent. I think like many South Asian Indian women, I definitely had a duty to protect the family’s honor. And I think being with a Black man was definitely not accepted and my family would not accept that. So I was given a choice to leave home or, you know, leave him. And I decided to leave home, not necessarily because I wanted because to, I was in love with this man that I’d known for 2 months, but because I wanted to make my own choices and live with my own regrets. So at 19, I was homeless, living in a hostel. I dropped out of university, got a job, and eventually ended up in an administration job at a really large multinational. At 21, I became pregnant with my daughter. And this really was, you know, my family had kept in touch with me, but this was the last straw. So at this point, I was disowned. And I think at that age, with being pregnant, I decided to make an application to university. So apply to London universities and was accepted at UCL to read anthropology. Unfortunately, my husband and I became homeless because we both obviously lost our jobs. And so we ended up living in a hostel in Stoke Newington. So that’s where my daughter was born. It was very hard. But again, we felt like one of the lucky ones when we were given a lovely housing association flat in Camden. And I would say that social housing is very close to my heart because I think it provided well, it provided a roof over our heads. It gave us a springboard to start a life, and as a family, gave us some protection. And eventually my parents, you know, they did come around, and they’ve been, you know, really supportive since then, very involved in my children’s life. And I think the fact that I’ve seen a transformation in my own parents and their acceptance of my husband over 20 years later— they adore him— I also think it shows the possibilities when people open their eyes a little. So when I was 22, I went to university, reading anthropology at UCL. I had my second daughter in the third year in the Christmas holidays. I don’t do things in halves. I went back to university two weeks later. I then decided to stay at university and read my master’s, and the aim was to work in a museum or a charity. But life has its own plans, I suppose, and I ended up taking a temporary job with a hedge fund. And I just had no knowledge of finance, no idea what capital markets were, but I just found this place so fascinating, so intellectually stimulating. And I think the rest is history. I was just obsessed with learning more.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: That is such a powerful story and so many things to unpack there. I suppose my first question is around both the fact that you studied anthropology as well as having had an experience clearly being a vulnerable member of society as well as mixing with a lot of other vulnerable members of society. What has that taught you in terms of people and how they operate and their incentives and maybe even translating to the role you do today and communicating with them?
Aoifinn Devitt: The one thing I’ve learned is the need for flexibility, giving people So, you support. Know, being a young with mother a— going to university with a 5-month-old, you know, having an institution like UCL really be very supportive of me, providing me with childcare, support, flexibility where it was needed. I think it just showed me a power that an institution can have in being inclusive and providing their, you know, their members with, with the ability to you be, know, with the support to be successful. So that was one thing. Another thing was, know, you I think anthropology just gave me, it gives you a great insight into how societies and people function. So the roles, their behaviors, how they interact. So a lot of that social theory, I think, can be applied to understanding our clients, the client engagement and experience. And I think that’s what’s really transferred over during the academic years to my career. And then the personal challenges, I think, have been, again, just giving you this perseverance and resilience to keep working hard and to keep trying to prove yourself. And to, to not live up to other people’s expectations, but your own, if that makes sense.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. And I think what you said earlier was very poignant about deciding to make your own choices and making the decision for that reason to own your choices. It’s clear that you had many setbacks before you got to the hedge fund door, I suppose, and they probably contributed to your resilience. Were there any obstacles and challenges once you entered the professional world then? And what do they look like?
Aoifinn Devitt: The first thing is I never knew asset management existed as an industry. And I think, you know, having grown up in a very, you know, well-to-do academic public school in West London, I was very surprised that this hadn’t been raised as a career option. I do remember a boy that I used to know at that age who was also at another public school saying he wanted to be a hedge fund manager. I just had no idea what he was on about. But I do think there was a gap in letting young women know that this industry existed, that it was a career opportunity for them. And then I think the challenge that I just had no idea what capital markets were, what investing was, you know, what bond markets, what equity markets looked like. So it really made me feel like a fish out of water, but also that’s what really kind of geared me you and, know, excited me about learning something new. Know, You I’m very intellectually curious. So that challenge was something that I wanted to rise to. Another one was obviously being a mum to two young children early on in my career and balancing that home life and work. And it was quite high levels of time in the office, so being away from your children can be challenging. Also, early on, I think, you know, this is probably similar to many people, I don’t think I was very good speaking up about what I wanted from my career, and over time, with support from advocates and sponsors who’ve encouraged me to do so, I’ve got better at speaking up about that. And then I think one other huge challenge for me personally are the glass ceilings. I think, you know, I’ve had to leave firms that I’ve loved working at because of these glass ceilings that just seem impossible to get through.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: And are they glass ceilings particular to women and diverse people, or are they just there because maybe the firms are top-heavy?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I actually think there’s a couple of things at play. So I think there’s very low turnover in our industry. It’s a great industry. It’s, you know, you see very low turnover in senior roles. You know, that’s one of the reasons. I think the other reasons are that sometimes there’s a career path or expectation of you and how far you may go and the support you receive. And I think sometimes that doesn’t always marry with your own expectations. So, I think, take that as it is.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: The first question I have, it seems that you were able to, to learn the ropes of the industry within the industry. Would that be accurate?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, I think so. You know, I think so very much with support from others.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Which is, I think, very reassuring so that therefore people from non-technical backgrounds or with different degrees, arts degrees, archaeology degrees, anthropology degrees, that shouldn’t be seen as a barrier then.
Aoifinn Devitt: No, I don’t think so at all. Some of the best PMs, portfolio managers I know, have read classics or history. So, I think there’s definitely not only on the, the kind of sales and marketing side, but even on the investment floor, I think there’s an opportunity. And usually it takes somebody to sponsor you and see the talent and opportunity, the potential, and then really invest their time and energy into helping you learn and drive your career.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: And you’ve talked about what you love about the investment world and how you never looked back essentially once you entered it. Can we look at the current sort of state of diversity in the industry and what your observations are on that?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, you’re right. I do love this industry. I love the talent, the people, clients, the investment dialogue. And also I love the fact that we’re trying to embrace change. I think You know, there has been a lot of good conversation over the last couple of years on diversity, and obviously it started with gender diversity. You know, women represent 50% of our society, so that makes complete sense to start there. I think as we move into other channels of diversity, so race, disability, age, you know, there, I think we don’t see enough senior representation in our industry. This is very obvious. To those outside the industry, even, you know, say my daughters who are 21 and 18, when they look at our industry. And representation matters, like, you know, how successful, how far can I go in my career if I were to work in this industry? But I do believe that now with all the conversations that have been having since the kind of last year or so, there is a desire and also I think some action to drive change, and that is by addressing the pipeline, providing sponsorship opportunities to mid-level individuals and creating an inclusive work environment. We spent a lot of time talking about diversity for, say, a number of years, and slowly that’s become action-oriented.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: I’d like to ask you about allyship, because there’s a lot of discussion around that, and it seems that if anyone was asked would they be a good ally, everybody would expect themselves to be a good ally. But what I wonder is there sometimes a disconnect between actual stepping up and acting as an ally and thinking you would, because it’s sometimes sometimes is more uncomfortable to actually do it. Do you see that improving, the level of allyship, and maybe do people need to be educated in how to be one?
Aoifinn Devitt: I think it depends if you mean allyship as being equating to being mentoring somebody and providing advice and guidance or sponsorship, where you’re you really, know, taking accountability for somebody’s career and their success and investing your time and energy into introducing them to your network, speaking to headhunters, educating them. I mean, there’s a lot of time and energy into true sponsorship and advocacy, and I think that really is an individual decision. And I think both sides, probably both parties, would need some educating on that. I definitely don’t think I would have been as successful if I didn’t have those type of advocates and sponsors. And I think mentors have been really great and allies, but the true benefit to me and maybe people that I’m trying to sponsor, is when you believe that you’re accountable for that person’s success.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. You’re a member of a number of affinity groups and in fact, on the steering committee of one. Can you speak about that?
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m on the steering committee of Talk About Black, and I met Dawid and Justin and Gavin in 2017, and that really was to drive more Black representation in our industry at senior levels. And I think Speaking to younger people in the industry, people who are trying to come in and make a career for themselves, it’s opened my eyes up to maybe some of the issues that still exist. And as you become more senior, that maybe you don’t experience on a day-to-day. I think, you know, we in leadership positions need to use— actually, I think it’s our duty to use our voices to you be, know, the champions for these people and for change and for wanting to build that pipeline. You know, I have 3 Black Indian children, so for me, it was very personal as well. The other thing I do think is firm culture is something that is becoming more interesting because I think there is a tendency for culture to sometimes be nostalgic. And if we want to be inclusive, then that diversity inclusion needs to be at the center of our cultural statements, and it needs to be in the present tense. And future tense. It needs to be aspirational. I do hear statements like, you know, this person’s not going to be a good cultural fit, or they’re not a good cultural fit, and that just sends shivers up my spine. So I do think we need to be careful when we speak about culture.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: And do you think it should be more around that culture should be dynamic and should grow, and that it shouldn’t be sort of a static thing, that it should be evolving constantly?
Aoifinn Devitt: Exactly. It should be reflective of our society. It should evolve with our clients and the society we live in, and it’s almost like an active and living mechanism that drives inclusion.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. Can you talk about your work at Nova Opportunities and what’s the mission of that organization?
Aoifinn Devitt: Nova is based in West London in, in the kind of Ladbroke Grove area and is committed to helping people from diverse backgrounds, you know, kind of move forward with their skills, build their confidence, give them education and opportunities, and make them more employable. So it really focuses on returners to work, the long-term unemployed, and minority ethnic groups such as migrants and refugees. And obviously, given my parents’ background, this, this really did matter a lot to me. And this community was really affected by Grenfell in recent years as well. And NOVA really achieves this by providing over 1,000 local residents moving to education and support. During COVID they really helped children with their education to stay on top with maths and English virtually. Providing technology when they’ve needed to. And I just feel very honored to you be, know, part of the trustee board and support Lizzie and her team with the work that they’re doing.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Sounds like a fantastic organization, very much needed at this juncture. You’ve spoken a lot about mentors and sponsors and assistance that you’ve received at various stages of your life. Are there any one or two key people who influenced you in particular that you can mention?
Aoifinn Devitt: So I suppose most people would obviously talk about their kind of personal support system and network. So my husband’s been my rock. You know, we’ve been together for 24 years. We had to fight to be together, but he supported every one of my ambitions, being somebody who I can always rely on. My children, they inspire me every day. And my parents, my parents gave me so much and they continue to do so. And just their resilience and the things that they had to go through have really inspired me. And then in the you industry, know, I can’t speak to— there’s so many advocates, there’s so many people who have given me a chance. Cindy Mars at Wellington, Dick van Lommel at Newburger, and now Luke Ellis, Steven Desmyter, and Eric, and Robin, and all of the leadership team at MAN. And I’d also like to mention Stefan Hasselwente, who definitely encouraged me to think more about what I wanted from my career and really supported those aspirations. But there’s so many people that, you know, I really hate the fact that I’m probably missing out a lot of people here. I think you can’t be successful as an individual. You do need that support system in the industry to help you.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: You have been incredibly successful at— you mentioned glass ceilings, but you seem to have pushed through quite a lot yourself. Within the division that you work in, say, within marketing, were there any kind of keys to making it to senior levels for you?
Aoifinn Devitt: I think marketing is a function that over the last 10 years has really been transformed. So, I think you do need to be somebody who speaks up to innovate, to be really comfortable with change and also to really drive your leadership or raise with your leadership the fact that marketing is becoming a more integral function in asset management and how we reach out to our clients. And I think COVID has just accelerated the trends that are already happening. And I think that’s something that I’m quite good at, speaking up, challenging the status quo. And I think that is a good marketer.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: When you look back at your career, was there any key pieces of advice that you received, or is there any creed or motto that you live by now?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I think one is when you know what you want from your career, speak up so others are very clear on your aspirations. The other is, you know, I very much am a believer in proving myself through my work and not really depending on talk rather action. And then finally, I think in recent years, it’s just balance and empathy. As you start managing a team as a manager and a leader, I think you really need to be more self-aware and empathize with the people you manage.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: That’s really powerful. I just wanted to get back to something you said about speaking up, because speaking up generally needs a modicum of confidence. And one area that troubles me is that there seems to be a prevailing narrative about women having less confidence. Have you noticed that in certain diverse groups as well, there is less confidence and maybe that can be kind of a self-fulfilling thing? Is that something that you also need to work on with some of the groups you work with?
Aoifinn Devitt: I think speaking up in large groups, a lot of diverse groups find that difficult and many people have mentioned that to me and I definitely suffered from that earlier on in my career. I have, I don’t now, I’m very happy to speak up and share ideas. I also think that when people speak up, there should be support from the leadership around the idea and the opinion, no matter if it will be acted upon or not, because it takes a lot of confidence, as you say, and bravery to speak up.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. And you mentioned about speaking up about what you want from your career, and I think there has to be some thought given perhaps to a career Plan. Sometimes maybe that requires confidence to actually make a plan, but I really do encourage younger women that I mentor to develop a plan at least, because mean, I if you don’t have a plan, you sadly can’t expect other people to have a plan for you. I think that usually doesn’t happen.
Aoifinn Devitt: And also I think guidance, like when you’re young in your career, you don’t know the options that may be available for you. You So, know, looking back on my career, I probably, and maybe even at school, if I had known about this industry, I probably even would’ve liked to be on the investment side, you know, given the opportunity. But not having either the education or career guidance, and then in the industry, a limited opportunity or guidance on opportunities on the investment floor, I think that is something that is still a gap and that maybe we need to provide more to those that are just starting or, you know, kind of 2 or 3 years into their career, or maybe even somebody who wants to change later on in their career.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: So a lot of this, I’m sure, is some wisdom you might have wished you’d known earlier, but if you were to give advice to your younger self, Is there any one or two things you would say now?
Aoifinn Devitt: I wish I’d be more confident in my judgments and instincts. The other part is like, don’t always be so serious and critical. Have fun. It is you a, know, work you spend so much time with your colleagues and it is such a fun industry. So, I just encourage myself to have a bit more fun.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Well, thank you so much, Angie, for sharing your story. Your instincts were certainly the right ones, even if you didn’t have confidence in them at the time. And your history is such a rich one that I’m sure many listeners will identify with aspects of it. And thank you so much for coming here and sharing your insights with us.
Aoifinn Devitt: You’re welcome. And thank you for having me, Aoifinn.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: One other huge challenge for me personally are the glass ceilings. I you think, know, I’ve had to leave firms that I’ve loved working at because of these glass ceilings that just seem impossible to get through.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Our next guest has had an extraordinary life journey that has helped her to build resilience and a deep empathy. Find out how she is using this insight together with her power of communication to change the industry for the better. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment by focusing on its people and their stories. I’m joined today by Angie Kang Stewart, who is Global Head of Marketing at Man Group, based in their London office. She previously held a series of senior marketing roles and previously business development roles throughout the investment industry and is a member of the Board of Trustees of Nova New Opportunities. Welcome, Angie. Thank you for joining me today.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you for having me, Aoifinn.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Let’s start by talking about your background, where you grew up, what you studied, and how you came to enter the world of investing.
Aoifinn Devitt: Sure. So I was born to Indian parents in West London, growing up in a close-knit Sikh community. Both my parents were immigrants. My dad came over in the ’50s, so very much a part of the early immigration movement from India. He was one of the first in his family to attend university. My mother came over here when she got married. So like most immigrants, you know, they were challenged with kind of getting work, economic wealth. So we lived in lots of estates growing up in West London. So White City, they even squatted at one stage off the Fulham Road, but eventually we settled in Hayes. In West London, which is a very working-class area. Having attended so many different schools before the age of 7, I actually couldn’t read at the age of 7, which was recognized at Yedding Junior School, which was a phenomenal school, state school, and they really took effort to teach me to read and invested in my education and really got me engaged in academics. So, I really felt like I was one of the lucky ones during those years. I would say, you know, like most Asian children at that time, know, you we did experience some overt racism growing up, very different to what we see today in my own children’s experience. And my parents recognized that they really wanted to invest in our education. And as they became more successful, they made the decision to send us all to private school. So I feel very privileged that I had these parents, although not wealthy, spent every penny they had on their children’s education. And my father himself, you know, very different maybe for some of his generation, really wanted his daughters to have equal opportunity, to be able to do whatever we wanted to really. He really was an inspiration to me, supported my dreams, whether I wanted to be an astronaut one week or a doctor the next. So it was, it was very refreshing. However, when I was 19, I met my husband who is Jamaican, say Black British, Jamaican descent. I think like many South Asian Indian women, I definitely had a duty to protect the family’s honor. And I think being with a Black man was definitely not accepted and my family would not accept that. So I was given a choice to leave home or, you know, leave him. And I decided to leave home, not necessarily because I wanted because to, I was in love with this man that I’d known for 2 months, but because I wanted to make my own choices and live with my own regrets. So at 19, I was homeless, living in a hostel. I dropped out of university, got a job, and eventually ended up in an administration job at a really large multinational. At 21, I became pregnant with my daughter. And this really was, you know, my family had kept in touch with me, but this was the last straw. So at this point, I was disowned. And I think at that age, with being pregnant, I decided to make an application to university. So apply to London universities and was accepted at UCL to read anthropology. Unfortunately, my husband and I became homeless because we both obviously lost our jobs. And so we ended up living in a hostel in Stoke Newington. So that’s where my daughter was born. It was very hard. But again, we felt like one of the lucky ones when we were given a lovely housing association flat in Camden. And I would say that social housing is very close to my heart because I think it provided well, it provided a roof over our heads. It gave us a springboard to start a life, and as a family, gave us some protection. And eventually my parents, you know, they did come around, and they’ve been, you know, really supportive since then, very involved in my children’s life. And I think the fact that I’ve seen a transformation in my own parents and their acceptance of my husband over 20 years later— they adore him— I also think it shows the possibilities when people open their eyes a little. So when I was 22, I went to university, reading anthropology at UCL. I had my second daughter in the third year in the Christmas holidays. I don’t do things in halves. I went back to university two weeks later. I then decided to stay at university and read my master’s, and the aim was to work in a museum or a charity. But life has its own plans, I suppose, and I ended up taking a temporary job with a hedge fund. And I just had no knowledge of finance, no idea what capital markets were, but I just found this place so fascinating, so intellectually stimulating. And I think the rest is history. I was just obsessed with learning more.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: That is such a powerful story and so many things to unpack there. I suppose my first question is around both the fact that you studied anthropology as well as having had an experience clearly being a vulnerable member of society as well as mixing with a lot of other vulnerable members of society. What has that taught you in terms of people and how they operate and their incentives and maybe even translating to the role you do today and communicating with them?
Aoifinn Devitt: The one thing I’ve learned is the need for flexibility, giving people So, you support. Know, being a young with mother a— going to university with a 5-month-old, you know, having an institution like UCL really be very supportive of me, providing me with childcare, support, flexibility where it was needed. I think it just showed me a power that an institution can have in being inclusive and providing their, you know, their members with, with the ability to you be, know, with the support to be successful. So that was one thing. Another thing was, know, you I think anthropology just gave me, it gives you a great insight into how societies and people function. So the roles, their behaviors, how they interact. So a lot of that social theory, I think, can be applied to understanding our clients, the client engagement and experience. And I think that’s what’s really transferred over during the academic years to my career. And then the personal challenges, I think, have been, again, just giving you this perseverance and resilience to keep working hard and to keep trying to prove yourself. And to, to not live up to other people’s expectations, but your own, if that makes sense.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. And I think what you said earlier was very poignant about deciding to make your own choices and making the decision for that reason to own your choices. It’s clear that you had many setbacks before you got to the hedge fund door, I suppose, and they probably contributed to your resilience. Were there any obstacles and challenges once you entered the professional world then? And what do they look like?
Aoifinn Devitt: The first thing is I never knew asset management existed as an industry. And I think, you know, having grown up in a very, you know, well-to-do academic public school in West London, I was very surprised that this hadn’t been raised as a career option. I do remember a boy that I used to know at that age who was also at another public school saying he wanted to be a hedge fund manager. I just had no idea what he was on about. But I do think there was a gap in letting young women know that this industry existed, that it was a career opportunity for them. And then I think the challenge that I just had no idea what capital markets were, what investing was, you know, what bond markets, what equity markets looked like. So it really made me feel like a fish out of water, but also that’s what really kind of geared me you and, know, excited me about learning something new. Know, You I’m very intellectually curious. So that challenge was something that I wanted to rise to. Another one was obviously being a mum to two young children early on in my career and balancing that home life and work. And it was quite high levels of time in the office, so being away from your children can be challenging. Also, early on, I think, you know, this is probably similar to many people, I don’t think I was very good speaking up about what I wanted from my career, and over time, with support from advocates and sponsors who’ve encouraged me to do so, I’ve got better at speaking up about that. And then I think one other huge challenge for me personally are the glass ceilings. I think, you know, I’ve had to leave firms that I’ve loved working at because of these glass ceilings that just seem impossible to get through.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: And are they glass ceilings particular to women and diverse people, or are they just there because maybe the firms are top-heavy?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I actually think there’s a couple of things at play. So I think there’s very low turnover in our industry. It’s a great industry. It’s, you know, you see very low turnover in senior roles. You know, that’s one of the reasons. I think the other reasons are that sometimes there’s a career path or expectation of you and how far you may go and the support you receive. And I think sometimes that doesn’t always marry with your own expectations. So, I think, take that as it is.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: The first question I have, it seems that you were able to, to learn the ropes of the industry within the industry. Would that be accurate?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yes, I think so. You know, I think so very much with support from others.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Which is, I think, very reassuring so that therefore people from non-technical backgrounds or with different degrees, arts degrees, archaeology degrees, anthropology degrees, that shouldn’t be seen as a barrier then.
Aoifinn Devitt: No, I don’t think so at all. Some of the best PMs, portfolio managers I know, have read classics or history. So, I think there’s definitely not only on the, the kind of sales and marketing side, but even on the investment floor, I think there’s an opportunity. And usually it takes somebody to sponsor you and see the talent and opportunity, the potential, and then really invest their time and energy into helping you learn and drive your career.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: And you’ve talked about what you love about the investment world and how you never looked back essentially once you entered it. Can we look at the current sort of state of diversity in the industry and what your observations are on that?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, you’re right. I do love this industry. I love the talent, the people, clients, the investment dialogue. And also I love the fact that we’re trying to embrace change. I think You know, there has been a lot of good conversation over the last couple of years on diversity, and obviously it started with gender diversity. You know, women represent 50% of our society, so that makes complete sense to start there. I think as we move into other channels of diversity, so race, disability, age, you know, there, I think we don’t see enough senior representation in our industry. This is very obvious. To those outside the industry, even, you know, say my daughters who are 21 and 18, when they look at our industry. And representation matters, like, you know, how successful, how far can I go in my career if I were to work in this industry? But I do believe that now with all the conversations that have been having since the kind of last year or so, there is a desire and also I think some action to drive change, and that is by addressing the pipeline, providing sponsorship opportunities to mid-level individuals and creating an inclusive work environment. We spent a lot of time talking about diversity for, say, a number of years, and slowly that’s become action-oriented.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: I’d like to ask you about allyship, because there’s a lot of discussion around that, and it seems that if anyone was asked would they be a good ally, everybody would expect themselves to be a good ally. But what I wonder is there sometimes a disconnect between actual stepping up and acting as an ally and thinking you would, because it’s sometimes sometimes is more uncomfortable to actually do it. Do you see that improving, the level of allyship, and maybe do people need to be educated in how to be one?
Aoifinn Devitt: I think it depends if you mean allyship as being equating to being mentoring somebody and providing advice and guidance or sponsorship, where you’re you really, know, taking accountability for somebody’s career and their success and investing your time and energy into introducing them to your network, speaking to headhunters, educating them. I mean, there’s a lot of time and energy into true sponsorship and advocacy, and I think that really is an individual decision. And I think both sides, probably both parties, would need some educating on that. I definitely don’t think I would have been as successful if I didn’t have those type of advocates and sponsors. And I think mentors have been really great and allies, but the true benefit to me and maybe people that I’m trying to sponsor, is when you believe that you’re accountable for that person’s success.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. You’re a member of a number of affinity groups and in fact, on the steering committee of one. Can you speak about that?
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m on the steering committee of Talk About Black, and I met Dawid and Justin and Gavin in 2017, and that really was to drive more Black representation in our industry at senior levels. And I think Speaking to younger people in the industry, people who are trying to come in and make a career for themselves, it’s opened my eyes up to maybe some of the issues that still exist. And as you become more senior, that maybe you don’t experience on a day-to-day. I think, you know, we in leadership positions need to use— actually, I think it’s our duty to use our voices to you be, know, the champions for these people and for change and for wanting to build that pipeline. You know, I have 3 Black Indian children, so for me, it was very personal as well. The other thing I do think is firm culture is something that is becoming more interesting because I think there is a tendency for culture to sometimes be nostalgic. And if we want to be inclusive, then that diversity inclusion needs to be at the center of our cultural statements, and it needs to be in the present tense. And future tense. It needs to be aspirational. I do hear statements like, you know, this person’s not going to be a good cultural fit, or they’re not a good cultural fit, and that just sends shivers up my spine. So I do think we need to be careful when we speak about culture.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: And do you think it should be more around that culture should be dynamic and should grow, and that it shouldn’t be sort of a static thing, that it should be evolving constantly?
Aoifinn Devitt: Exactly. It should be reflective of our society. It should evolve with our clients and the society we live in, and it’s almost like an active and living mechanism that drives inclusion.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. Can you talk about your work at Nova Opportunities and what’s the mission of that organization?
Aoifinn Devitt: Nova is based in West London in, in the kind of Ladbroke Grove area and is committed to helping people from diverse backgrounds, you know, kind of move forward with their skills, build their confidence, give them education and opportunities, and make them more employable. So it really focuses on returners to work, the long-term unemployed, and minority ethnic groups such as migrants and refugees. And obviously, given my parents’ background, this, this really did matter a lot to me. And this community was really affected by Grenfell in recent years as well. And NOVA really achieves this by providing over 1,000 local residents moving to education and support. During COVID they really helped children with their education to stay on top with maths and English virtually. Providing technology when they’ve needed to. And I just feel very honored to you be, know, part of the trustee board and support Lizzie and her team with the work that they’re doing.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Sounds like a fantastic organization, very much needed at this juncture. You’ve spoken a lot about mentors and sponsors and assistance that you’ve received at various stages of your life. Are there any one or two key people who influenced you in particular that you can mention?
Aoifinn Devitt: So I suppose most people would obviously talk about their kind of personal support system and network. So my husband’s been my rock. You know, we’ve been together for 24 years. We had to fight to be together, but he supported every one of my ambitions, being somebody who I can always rely on. My children, they inspire me every day. And my parents, my parents gave me so much and they continue to do so. And just their resilience and the things that they had to go through have really inspired me. And then in the you industry, know, I can’t speak to— there’s so many advocates, there’s so many people who have given me a chance. Cindy Mars at Wellington, Dick van Lommel at Newburger, and now Luke Ellis, Steven Desmyter, and Eric, and Robin, and all of the leadership team at MAN. And I’d also like to mention Stefan Hasselwente, who definitely encouraged me to think more about what I wanted from my career and really supported those aspirations. But there’s so many people that, you know, I really hate the fact that I’m probably missing out a lot of people here. I think you can’t be successful as an individual. You do need that support system in the industry to help you.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: You have been incredibly successful at— you mentioned glass ceilings, but you seem to have pushed through quite a lot yourself. Within the division that you work in, say, within marketing, were there any kind of keys to making it to senior levels for you?
Aoifinn Devitt: I think marketing is a function that over the last 10 years has really been transformed. So, I think you do need to be somebody who speaks up to innovate, to be really comfortable with change and also to really drive your leadership or raise with your leadership the fact that marketing is becoming a more integral function in asset management and how we reach out to our clients. And I think COVID has just accelerated the trends that are already happening. And I think that’s something that I’m quite good at, speaking up, challenging the status quo. And I think that is a good marketer.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: When you look back at your career, was there any key pieces of advice that you received, or is there any creed or motto that you live by now?
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, I think one is when you know what you want from your career, speak up so others are very clear on your aspirations. The other is, you know, I very much am a believer in proving myself through my work and not really depending on talk rather action. And then finally, I think in recent years, it’s just balance and empathy. As you start managing a team as a manager and a leader, I think you really need to be more self-aware and empathize with the people you manage.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: That’s really powerful. I just wanted to get back to something you said about speaking up, because speaking up generally needs a modicum of confidence. And one area that troubles me is that there seems to be a prevailing narrative about women having less confidence. Have you noticed that in certain diverse groups as well, there is less confidence and maybe that can be kind of a self-fulfilling thing? Is that something that you also need to work on with some of the groups you work with?
Aoifinn Devitt: I think speaking up in large groups, a lot of diverse groups find that difficult and many people have mentioned that to me and I definitely suffered from that earlier on in my career. I have, I don’t now, I’m very happy to speak up and share ideas. I also think that when people speak up, there should be support from the leadership around the idea and the opinion, no matter if it will be acted upon or not, because it takes a lot of confidence, as you say, and bravery to speak up.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Absolutely. And you mentioned about speaking up about what you want from your career, and I think there has to be some thought given perhaps to a career Plan. Sometimes maybe that requires confidence to actually make a plan, but I really do encourage younger women that I mentor to develop a plan at least, because mean, I if you don’t have a plan, you sadly can’t expect other people to have a plan for you. I think that usually doesn’t happen.
Aoifinn Devitt: And also I think guidance, like when you’re young in your career, you don’t know the options that may be available for you. You So, know, looking back on my career, I probably, and maybe even at school, if I had known about this industry, I probably even would’ve liked to be on the investment side, you know, given the opportunity. But not having either the education or career guidance, and then in the industry, a limited opportunity or guidance on opportunities on the investment floor, I think that is something that is still a gap and that maybe we need to provide more to those that are just starting or, you know, kind of 2 or 3 years into their career, or maybe even somebody who wants to change later on in their career.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: So a lot of this, I’m sure, is some wisdom you might have wished you’d known earlier, but if you were to give advice to your younger self, Is there any one or two things you would say now?
Aoifinn Devitt: I wish I’d be more confident in my judgments and instincts. The other part is like, don’t always be so serious and critical. Have fun. It is you a, know, work you spend so much time with your colleagues and it is such a fun industry. So, I just encourage myself to have a bit more fun.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: Well, thank you so much, Angie, for sharing your story. Your instincts were certainly the right ones, even if you didn’t have confidence in them at the time. And your history is such a rich one that I’m sure many listeners will identify with aspects of it. And thank you so much for coming here and sharing your insights with us.
Aoifinn Devitt: You’re welcome. And thank you for having me, Aoifinn.
Anji (Anjuman) Kaur Kang: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
