Aoifinn Devitt: Why looking for the light and focusing on a positive energy source can be a recipe for leadership and an ethical and sustainable future. Let’s hear from Linda Hogan. I’m Aoifinn Devitt and welcome to this special 50 Faces Focus Series in which we showcase the 3 candidates for the upcoming Provost election at Trinity College Dublin due to be held in April 2021. This historic election will see the first female Provost in the institution’s 429-year history. I’m joined today by Linda Hogan, who is Chair of Ecumenics at Trinity College Dublin and a Fellow of the College. She was Vice Provost of the College from 2011 to 2016. Her research focuses on themes of ethics and religion. Welcome, Linda, thank you for joining me today.
Linda Hogan: Pleasure to be here, Aoifinnen.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s start with talking about your own career journey, going right back to where you grew up and where you studied.
Linda Hogan: Yes, so I grew up in a small town in County Kilkenny called Callum, and I went to the local convent school run by the Sisters of Mercy, all-girls school, very academically focused. And, you know, there I think we had a really excellent broad education and, you know, very much focused on, you know, achieving for academically in particular So that suited me very well because I was a very studious and bookish young girl. I was very captivated by history and politics and literature, so those were my interests when I was growing up. And then I actually, when I finished school, I wasn’t— when I was finishing school, I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to study. I knew I wanted to get into a more detailed study of a range of subjects. I was very interested, as I said, in history, English, law, politics, and in the end I became fascinated when I was a teenager about the role of religion in Irish society. You know, I was growing up in the late ’70s and early ’80s, and, you know, the role of religion, the church, all of the referenda were having a huge impact on Irish politics, and I really wanted to understand what was this entity that had such a hold on the country and that captivated, you know, so much of the population. And so I went and studied theology and history at Maynooth, and I did a degree there, and at the end of that, just became more and more immersed in the study of religion and took a master’s there which focused on ethics. And from there, came to Trinity to do a PhD in the field of feminist ethics in the Department of Religion. So that’s my straightforward journey, though of course there were lots of different sort of points of interest, and you know, on the way I became very interested early on in the early development of Christianity, particularly the first 4 or 5 centuries, so When I was studying my master’s and PhD, I took the various theological languages and took a degree also in classical Greek so that I could read these texts and understand how they had evolved into the overwhelming institutional religion that we have today.
Aoifinn Devitt: And did you always think you would choose a life in academia? Was that always the plan?
Linda Hogan: I wouldn’t say it was planned, but as I look back on it now, I can see that there was no other place that my life’s journey was taking me. I loved academia, I loved studying, I loved learning, and then I discovered that I also loved teaching. So that was the way I discovered my love of academia. It was really from immersion in this subject that I loved and growing out from that into communicating about it through teaching, and then later on through just engagement with policymakers on, you know, critical issues related to ethics and religion.
Aoifinn Devitt: And did your career, would you say, take any surprising turns? Did you spend time overseas, for example? Did you think you would pursue a path and choose not to?
Linda Hogan: So, well, I spent most of the 1990s in the UK, actually, in the University of Leeds, which is where I got my first major full-time permanent post. That was a very exciting department because it was very multi-religious, and of course Leeds is one of the most culturally and religiously diverse cities in the UK. And so there was a very vibrant culture of multiculturalism, multi-religion, and also that engagement with politics, local politics and national politics. It was sort of the Blair years where there was, you know, a lot of effort at understanding how religion could, and how progressive values in religion could shape progressive politics. So, that was a journey that I took and was very exciting. I’ve spent time, you know, shorter periods of time overseas in the US and in Australia, but all mostly on sort of short-term sort of visiting fellowships, and they also have been hugely stimulating in terms of really living in another environment, working in different institutions, seeing how they work, what their priorities are, and how they’re organized. So in answer to your question, did my career take any surprising turns? I wouldn’t say they took a surprising turn, but I was not really ever very clear whether I would find a life in academia, actually, because when I finished my PhD in the early ’90s, you know, it was a time of retrenchment in Irish higher education. There was very little recruitment, and also I was in a field that really you wasn’t, know, an area of growth like in, you know, science and engineering. So I regard myself as very lucky to have gotten my first job, and then, you know, once you’re— in my experience, once I was on that track, you know, other opportunities opened to me, and I took them and then came back to Trinity in 2001.
Aoifinn Devitt: And so what exactly does the field of ecumenics encompass?
Linda Hogan: So ecumenics is an interdisciplinary field, really, that looks at the intersection of religion politics, and ethics. And we have in Trinity a Chair of Ecumenics, which is one of the few chairs in ecumenics in Europe, though there are some, and it is really a field that, as I say, seeks to explore these interdisciplinary connections. It looks at these connections in historical terms, in cultural terms, and in political terms, and that’s really the space that I’m in, in the sort of political implications of these intersections.
Aoifinn Devitt: And when you look at the current research being done in your field, is there any one area that excites you particularly now?
Linda Hogan: Well, the first thing to say there is that this is a very exciting field because I think, you know, when you look around the world at any of the debates about politics and culture, religion is right there in the center of it. And although in the Western world we’re in an environment where religiosity is decreasing, actually religious affiliation around the world is growing rather than decreasing. And so, you know, when we’re looking at the impact that religion has on global politics, I think, you know, we’re right at the heart of, you know, some of the most seminal debates. My particular area of interest is on how religion shapes gender norms and how religious values can become sort of catalysts for equality for women and, you know, reproductive justice and, you know, all of these sort of important issues for women. And so that’s a hugely exciting part of the field at the moment, and I, you know, I find myself right in the heart of it.
Aoifinn Devitt: There’s extremely rich areas for discussion there, probably for a whole separate podcast series, never mind single podcast. This one is about your vision for the Provost role, so let’s move to that one now. What do you think about your experience in the university community now during COVID-19, what has been uppermost in your mind?
Linda Hogan: So obviously the pandemic is uppermost in my mind and really asking the question and trying to answer the question, how can we make the university of the future better because of what we’ve been through as a community in this pandemic? And actually, I think that’s a question for all of society, actually, not just for the universities, but that is what’s uppermost in my mind. I sometimes use this phrase that we hear other people using as well as how can we build back better when we are in the process of recreating institution post-pandemic.
Aoifinn Devitt: And that’s a great segue to your current vision for the Provost role that you’re running for. You mentioned on your website your vision for a post-pandemic university. What does that university look like in your eyes?
Linda Hogan: Well, it’s a connected community. And by community, I mean community of academics, professional staff, students, and all our stakeholders. And I think one of the things that the pandemic has shown us is you that, know, all of our partners and stakeholders in the community and you also, know, overseas, is that they’re all part of the Trinity community. So first of all, we’re connected. Secondly, I would say the post-pandemic university has people at its core. And I, again, I think that’s a reminder about the way in which institutions work and organize themselves and, you know, where we can get fixated on processes and structures and systems, but actually, in the end, it’s all about the people. And then the third thing that is a kind of a central element for the post-pandemic university is it’s focused on the public good. Know, You I think as we’ve thought through our role as educators and as researchers in the university, and as we’ve been confronted by this major pandemic, we know that we have tremendous research and education to contribute to society. And that research and teaching is not just about vaccines and helping us address the pandemic, which is very important, but that’s just a part of what we do. We have a contribution now to make in terms of reclaiming our planet, in terms of reorienting our economics and social ethics towards the public good rather than towards privatization and the pursuit of profit. So I think that that too is part for me of the core of what a post-pandemic university is. It’s reclaiming our public role and our advocacy for research and education in and for the public good.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I suppose I have two questions about that. What about some rehabilitation role immediately post-pandemic? I suppose you have now a whole freshman year, perhaps some of whom have not seen the inside of a lecture hall or the inside of a library, who’ve been conducting their entire academic career so far online. Will there be some rehabilitation needed for that cohort to ensure that they start to feel the spirit of what it really means to be in a third-level institution? And I suppose the second is around the ongoing integration of online and in-person education. How do you see that evolving?
Linda Hogan: Yes, so for sure there will need to be some significant focus on community building. I don’t know if I’d use the the word rehabilitation, but I know the point you’re making in terms of ensuring that we can create for those who have missed it the sense of community that the first years in junior fresh or indeed first-year postgrads won’t have had because of their experience this year. And so as I’ve been thinking about what I would do were I elected Provost in the first 100 days, part of it would be about finding ways to create connection and community particularly amongst those who haven’t experienced it before, but also for those who have experienced it and who know the loss. So I think I agree that that is a very important role. If I could make one point about this though, that I think has not really been made very often, that is, of course, we must pay attention to all that our students have lost and missed in this year. And provide better resources and supports for people, particularly students and staff experiencing anxiety and stress. However, we also need, I think, to celebrate the resilience that our students and young people will have built through this pandemic, and I worry slightly that with the overwhelming narrative of loss and stress that we will fail to see all that they have gained and enable them and support them to build on that resilience that they will have achieved through this year. And I think that’s, for me, is as important as a recognition of the loss. So that’s one point. On the question about the integration of the online and the face-to-face, well, I would say from my own experience of teaching online, particularly trying to teach whole modules online, we— I do really feel that there is something that one cannot really communicate or capture in a wholly online experience. So for me, the face-to-face is going to be always an absolutely vital part of the central part of what we do in Trinity. I think it’s actually— the pandemic has been useful in a way that it has highlighted that the sort of very bullish utopian discussions about whole move to online for universities is actually not what students want, it’s not what teachers want, and we see the real deficits. It’s fine as part of what we offer, it can be very good for some cohorts of students, but I would not see it as something that we will pursue as a dominant mode of teaching. Into the future.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you for that. And just wanted to move to other aspects of the Provost role. Your website mentions your distinct leadership style, and you also speak about ethical leadership in areas from sustainability to climate change to pandemic management. And how do you characterize your leadership style, and how do you weave some of these aspects of ethical leadership into it?
Linda Hogan: Yes, it’s always very interesting to be asked to reflect on one’s leadership style because In a way, that’s also something that I think colleagues who experience it would probably have something to say about. But I think for me, it’s about a combination of idealism and pragmatism. I think as a leader, one must be optimistic and see the best of one’s institution, what it can be, and also be able to make decisions and pragmatic judgments about what is possible in the immediate or medium term. So I think that I do have that, at least I try and learn and cultivate that kind of combination of idealism and pragmatism. I think the other thing I would say is, at least for me, it’s very important to have an inclusive leadership style, and that for me is all about collaboration with people, listening to people, not listening only to the loudest voices, because I think one has to pay attention to those voices that have something to say but that are not the loudest ones, and that for me is also about listening. Leadership is also about building teams and creating consensus and building bridges among people, because I think in leadership it’s never just about one person engaging with the, know, you a range of other individuals. It’s also about the team one builds and the kind of culture and values one instills and inspires in a team, and then what they can instill and inspire in others. So those are my thoughts about my leadership style. I hope that my colleagues who’ve worked with me over the years would confirm that, but that’s certainly what I aim to achieve as I am in leadership roles. In terms of how we instill that ethical leadership in relation to all that we do, well, It’s about living our values. I think when I spoke earlier about universities working in and for the public good, it’s really how do we do that. Well, we do it by, first of all, in the programs we teach and, you know, what we impart to our students and the kind of research that we do and what drives us. But it’s also about the values that the university embodies, how we embody them in our own organization, and then For example, like addressing climate change, making sure that we’re not just talking about the values, but also we’re changing our practices to become more sustainable. So it is about living our values and expecting that we make sure that our practice aligns with the values we espouse. And I think that runs across the board, not only from the research we do and the teaching we do, but also the investments we have, and are they oriented towards sustainability? The philanthropy we seek— are our partners working in ways that we are proud of and that we can endorse? So the ethical leadership, I think, has very significant impacts for all that we do, and I believe that what we do and how we do what we do should be intimately connected and should be driven by the values that we espouse.
Aoifinn Devitt: I just want to get back to the point about inclusive leadership, because this is something that is very close to my heart. You know, the podcast series I’ve developed is primarily about inclusion and diversity in the world of investment. I know that this is certainly an area close to your heart in terms of the research that you do, But what are your impressions of the experience of women and diverse groups, both in academia in general and in Trinity in particular?
Linda Hogan: Well, I think in the last 10 years Trinity has improved significantly in terms of the culture of inclusion, not only for women but also for diverse groups, but I think we still have a long way to go. When I was Vice-Provost, we first of all introduced the Athena Swan Initiative, which was one where— you’re probably familiar with it— but every school and department, you know, needs to look at its own structures, its career profile, how it supports equality and diversity, and also develop a plan to improve it over a period of time. And that’s been very successful, I think. Not only has it meant that the conversations about gender equality and diversity are conversations that are had across the whole university, but also it means that we’re constantly challenging ourselves at each school or department level to make changes. But there is a long way to go, and I think we have to be far more intentional and focused in our efforts, driven by the conviction, which I am, that diversity supports excellence. It’s not in competition with excellence, but it actually supports it. And so I think For me, at least, we have to do this at a whole series of levels. You know, we know, for example, that when we recruit men and women at the early career stage, that there is a period of time when women find it more difficult because of family responsibilities to keep their research careers up and running. And in our— in many fields, once you have a gap at all, it’s very difficult to restart. So, we have to have initiatives that enable women to restart their research careers or, you know, enhance their research careers when they come back from maternity leave. We have very little real substantive childcare provision in the university, and that’s a big problem, I think, in terms of, you know, concrete supports for gender equality, because especially in a city campus, centre you know, it represents a big challenge for women, particularly— not only women, but particularly women— in terms of being present, in terms of their capacity to participate in all of the things that they’re expected to as academics. And there are other things like workload and making sure that particularly minority groups are not carrying all of the burden of representation of their groups, because that can also be a significant factor in drawing them away from those aspects of the career that are actually rewarded at promotions time. So are there So, lots of practical things we can do, but we can also reform our promotion system to make sure that our criteria are those that are appropriate for each stage. And that is one of the other things that I think would make a big difference when we think about how in concrete terms we can advance equality, not only for women, but for other— call them minority groups, because women certainly at the senior level are still in a minority. And I think when you make these practical changes, you in time change the culture. I think the biggest problem we have is, as much of the analysis has shown, if we just keep making incremental changes in the way we have been doing for the last 20 years, it will take, know, you I don’t know, 100 or more years to— before we have parity and equality. So we do need to work much more effectively on the factors that create the conditions for success. And I think where women and other groups have meaningful conditions that enhance and support their success, they do succeed.
Aoifinn Devitt: And how about access? How about balance in the student body? Do you think this needs to be improved, i.e., that more students need to have access to Trinity perhaps?
Linda Hogan: Definitely. I think we’ve got a very successful access program in the sense that when students come to Trinity from non-traditional backgrounds and come through our access route, they perform as well as anybody else who’s come to the university. That is not the experience in other Irish universities where there’s a big attrition rate, where they have larger numbers of people coming through their access program. So we have an excellent program it’s just not extensive enough and it’s not broad enough. And so that is one of the things that I would be very much focused on, is broadening access by increasing the percentage of students from non-traditional backgrounds. Also, we do very well in terms of engaging students in the immediate community around Trinity, which is of course appropriate, but I think our reach into the rest of the country is probably not very good. And so, you know, the kinds of relationships we have with DESH schools in our immediate environment. Those should really be, I think, developed around the country as well, and that is one of the ways I think we would increase diversity as well. For all our good work, know, you the vast majority of students still come from a very small number of schools in the Dublin area, and I think that is one of the things one would like to see evolve over the next decade as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, there’s certainly so much to talk about in this respect. I would like to get to some quickfire questions back to your personal journey just to finish us off here. Who were some of the key people who influenced you throughout your career so far and how?
Linda Hogan: Yeah, it’s a great question. So I would want to begin by saying that my parents were extremely supportive of the choices I made and they were really supportive and education and, you know, advanced education, and that was really important for me. As I was reflecting on this, I realized I was barely taught by any women in my undergraduate and master’s degree, actually in PhD as well. The study of religion was very male-dominated, but there are a number of people who stood out. There was a theologian, a brilliant theologian called Enda McDonagh, who has been an extraordinary friend and mentor to me, and what he taught me was the importance of interdisciplinarity. He taught me that in order to understand religion, you have to read politics, history, poetry, literature. And really, even before the language of interdisciplinarity was current, I think I was doing my research and educating myself in an interdisciplinary manner. That was very influential. And I suppose the other person who was hugely influential influential early in my career was a woman called Professor Kim Knott at the University of Leeds. And again, she is a very active, engaged researcher. She was the person who I think, from whom I learned that as a woman in academia, you have to be very focused. In a way, you’ve got to work twice as hard, but that if you do, the rewards are great. And she was also a very influential mentor and guide through my career. I think the other thing on that I would say is that it’s really only as I’ve reflected on my own career that I’ve realized how influential key people were, even though we didn’t have the language of mentor in those days really in the same ways we use it now in academia at least. But I think supports from people at critical times That’s really important for early career academics because it is quite a lonely road.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s very interesting actually that you point out that we didn’t perhaps have the language back then because it is true that it’s become so normal now to expect not only a mentor but also a sponsor.
Linda Hogan: Yes.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, and there’s a lovely interview you’ve done, I think it’s on your website, where you speak about looking for the light. Besides that, are there any other— maybe you can explain what you mean by that, but also are there any other creed or a motto that you have that you let guide you through your life?
Linda Hogan: Yes, there are. I mean, I think the most fundamental thing is got to know who you are and what your values are and what is important. And though we don’t really talk in those terms all the time, I think we show what’s important every day to us. And so that’s key. I think the other thing is I’ve really learned is the importance of never stopping learning, and I think academia teaches you that, you know, the joy and the pleasure of learning. On the find the light and build around it, you know, that’s again something that I have learned, especially in management actually. It’s very easy when you’re in a management role or a leadership role to be fixated on, you know, the problems and what you have to fix, and of course you do have to, address those. But I have found in my life that the most beneficial way of really running anything is to find where the energy is, where the optimism is, and then support that, because that is what in the end will lift an organization and lift the research and lift the education. So that’s what I mean by finding the light, not to be distracted or overly focused on those energy-sapping areas that are problematic, but actually, where’s the energy? Where’s the optimism? And let’s support that.
Aoifinn Devitt: Those are very inspiring words, but not only inspiring, I think also quite actionable. Really, we can all probably translate them into some situation in our own lives. So thank you for that. My last question is around any advice you might have for your younger self, maybe for that young college student Imanoush Is there anything that you know now that you wish you had known then?
Linda Hogan: I think I would say to my younger self, one day you will realize that perfection does not exist, and that will be very liberating. And the reason I say that is because I think many women, young women in particular, really do strive for perfection. They’re very hard on themselves. And when you realize that that is an unattainable goal and that what’s important is to continue to strive to do your best, that is, I think, very liberating. And I think had I realized early on that perfection doesn’t exist, I would have been a lot easier on myself.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you for that beautiful reminder. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, Linda. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. It’s been a pleasure.
Linda Hogan: A pleasure, Aoifinnen.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinnen Devitt. Thank you for listening to this special 50 Faces Focus Series. To hear the rest of the series, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Production support for this series was kindly provided by DLA Piper Ireland and Hermes Fund Managers Ireland Limited. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment or legal advice. All views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations or affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: Why looking for the light and focusing on a positive energy source can be a recipe for leadership and an ethical and sustainable future. Let’s hear from Linda Hogan. I’m Aoifinn Devitt and welcome to this special 50 Faces Focus Series in which we showcase the 3 candidates for the upcoming Provost election at Trinity College Dublin due to be held in April 2021. This historic election will see the first female Provost in the institution’s 429-year history. I’m joined today by Linda Hogan, who is Chair of Ecumenics at Trinity College Dublin and a Fellow of the College. She was Vice Provost of the College from 2011 to 2016. Her research focuses on themes of ethics and religion. Welcome, Linda, thank you for joining me today.
Linda Hogan: Pleasure to be here, Aoifinnen.
Aoifinn Devitt: Let’s start with talking about your own career journey, going right back to where you grew up and where you studied.
Linda Hogan: Yes, so I grew up in a small town in County Kilkenny called Callum, and I went to the local convent school run by the Sisters of Mercy, all-girls school, very academically focused. And, you know, there I think we had a really excellent broad education and, you know, very much focused on, you know, achieving for academically in particular So that suited me very well because I was a very studious and bookish young girl. I was very captivated by history and politics and literature, so those were my interests when I was growing up. And then I actually, when I finished school, I wasn’t— when I was finishing school, I wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to study. I knew I wanted to get into a more detailed study of a range of subjects. I was very interested, as I said, in history, English, law, politics, and in the end I became fascinated when I was a teenager about the role of religion in Irish society. You know, I was growing up in the late ’70s and early ’80s, and, you know, the role of religion, the church, all of the referenda were having a huge impact on Irish politics, and I really wanted to understand what was this entity that had such a hold on the country and that captivated, you know, so much of the population. And so I went and studied theology and history at Maynooth, and I did a degree there, and at the end of that, just became more and more immersed in the study of religion and took a master’s there which focused on ethics. And from there, came to Trinity to do a PhD in the field of feminist ethics in the Department of Religion. So that’s my straightforward journey, though of course there were lots of different sort of points of interest, and you know, on the way I became very interested early on in the early development of Christianity, particularly the first 4 or 5 centuries, so When I was studying my master’s and PhD, I took the various theological languages and took a degree also in classical Greek so that I could read these texts and understand how they had evolved into the overwhelming institutional religion that we have today.
Aoifinn Devitt: And did you always think you would choose a life in academia? Was that always the plan?
Linda Hogan: I wouldn’t say it was planned, but as I look back on it now, I can see that there was no other place that my life’s journey was taking me. I loved academia, I loved studying, I loved learning, and then I discovered that I also loved teaching. So that was the way I discovered my love of academia. It was really from immersion in this subject that I loved and growing out from that into communicating about it through teaching, and then later on through just engagement with policymakers on, you know, critical issues related to ethics and religion.
Aoifinn Devitt: And did your career, would you say, take any surprising turns? Did you spend time overseas, for example? Did you think you would pursue a path and choose not to?
Linda Hogan: So, well, I spent most of the 1990s in the UK, actually, in the University of Leeds, which is where I got my first major full-time permanent post. That was a very exciting department because it was very multi-religious, and of course Leeds is one of the most culturally and religiously diverse cities in the UK. And so there was a very vibrant culture of multiculturalism, multi-religion, and also that engagement with politics, local politics and national politics. It was sort of the Blair years where there was, you know, a lot of effort at understanding how religion could, and how progressive values in religion could shape progressive politics. So, that was a journey that I took and was very exciting. I’ve spent time, you know, shorter periods of time overseas in the US and in Australia, but all mostly on sort of short-term sort of visiting fellowships, and they also have been hugely stimulating in terms of really living in another environment, working in different institutions, seeing how they work, what their priorities are, and how they’re organized. So in answer to your question, did my career take any surprising turns? I wouldn’t say they took a surprising turn, but I was not really ever very clear whether I would find a life in academia, actually, because when I finished my PhD in the early ’90s, you know, it was a time of retrenchment in Irish higher education. There was very little recruitment, and also I was in a field that really you wasn’t, know, an area of growth like in, you know, science and engineering. So I regard myself as very lucky to have gotten my first job, and then, you know, once you’re— in my experience, once I was on that track, you know, other opportunities opened to me, and I took them and then came back to Trinity in 2001.
Aoifinn Devitt: And so what exactly does the field of ecumenics encompass?
Linda Hogan: So ecumenics is an interdisciplinary field, really, that looks at the intersection of religion politics, and ethics. And we have in Trinity a Chair of Ecumenics, which is one of the few chairs in ecumenics in Europe, though there are some, and it is really a field that, as I say, seeks to explore these interdisciplinary connections. It looks at these connections in historical terms, in cultural terms, and in political terms, and that’s really the space that I’m in, in the sort of political implications of these intersections.
Aoifinn Devitt: And when you look at the current research being done in your field, is there any one area that excites you particularly now?
Linda Hogan: Well, the first thing to say there is that this is a very exciting field because I think, you know, when you look around the world at any of the debates about politics and culture, religion is right there in the center of it. And although in the Western world we’re in an environment where religiosity is decreasing, actually religious affiliation around the world is growing rather than decreasing. And so, you know, when we’re looking at the impact that religion has on global politics, I think, you know, we’re right at the heart of, you know, some of the most seminal debates. My particular area of interest is on how religion shapes gender norms and how religious values can become sort of catalysts for equality for women and, you know, reproductive justice and, you know, all of these sort of important issues for women. And so that’s a hugely exciting part of the field at the moment, and I, you know, I find myself right in the heart of it.
Aoifinn Devitt: There’s extremely rich areas for discussion there, probably for a whole separate podcast series, never mind single podcast. This one is about your vision for the Provost role, so let’s move to that one now. What do you think about your experience in the university community now during COVID-19, what has been uppermost in your mind?
Linda Hogan: So obviously the pandemic is uppermost in my mind and really asking the question and trying to answer the question, how can we make the university of the future better because of what we’ve been through as a community in this pandemic? And actually, I think that’s a question for all of society, actually, not just for the universities, but that is what’s uppermost in my mind. I sometimes use this phrase that we hear other people using as well as how can we build back better when we are in the process of recreating institution post-pandemic.
Aoifinn Devitt: And that’s a great segue to your current vision for the Provost role that you’re running for. You mentioned on your website your vision for a post-pandemic university. What does that university look like in your eyes?
Linda Hogan: Well, it’s a connected community. And by community, I mean community of academics, professional staff, students, and all our stakeholders. And I think one of the things that the pandemic has shown us is you that, know, all of our partners and stakeholders in the community and you also, know, overseas, is that they’re all part of the Trinity community. So first of all, we’re connected. Secondly, I would say the post-pandemic university has people at its core. And I, again, I think that’s a reminder about the way in which institutions work and organize themselves and, you know, where we can get fixated on processes and structures and systems, but actually, in the end, it’s all about the people. And then the third thing that is a kind of a central element for the post-pandemic university is it’s focused on the public good. Know, You I think as we’ve thought through our role as educators and as researchers in the university, and as we’ve been confronted by this major pandemic, we know that we have tremendous research and education to contribute to society. And that research and teaching is not just about vaccines and helping us address the pandemic, which is very important, but that’s just a part of what we do. We have a contribution now to make in terms of reclaiming our planet, in terms of reorienting our economics and social ethics towards the public good rather than towards privatization and the pursuit of profit. So I think that that too is part for me of the core of what a post-pandemic university is. It’s reclaiming our public role and our advocacy for research and education in and for the public good.
Aoifinn Devitt: And I suppose I have two questions about that. What about some rehabilitation role immediately post-pandemic? I suppose you have now a whole freshman year, perhaps some of whom have not seen the inside of a lecture hall or the inside of a library, who’ve been conducting their entire academic career so far online. Will there be some rehabilitation needed for that cohort to ensure that they start to feel the spirit of what it really means to be in a third-level institution? And I suppose the second is around the ongoing integration of online and in-person education. How do you see that evolving?
Linda Hogan: Yes, so for sure there will need to be some significant focus on community building. I don’t know if I’d use the the word rehabilitation, but I know the point you’re making in terms of ensuring that we can create for those who have missed it the sense of community that the first years in junior fresh or indeed first-year postgrads won’t have had because of their experience this year. And so as I’ve been thinking about what I would do were I elected Provost in the first 100 days, part of it would be about finding ways to create connection and community particularly amongst those who haven’t experienced it before, but also for those who have experienced it and who know the loss. So I think I agree that that is a very important role. If I could make one point about this though, that I think has not really been made very often, that is, of course, we must pay attention to all that our students have lost and missed in this year. And provide better resources and supports for people, particularly students and staff experiencing anxiety and stress. However, we also need, I think, to celebrate the resilience that our students and young people will have built through this pandemic, and I worry slightly that with the overwhelming narrative of loss and stress that we will fail to see all that they have gained and enable them and support them to build on that resilience that they will have achieved through this year. And I think that’s, for me, is as important as a recognition of the loss. So that’s one point. On the question about the integration of the online and the face-to-face, well, I would say from my own experience of teaching online, particularly trying to teach whole modules online, we— I do really feel that there is something that one cannot really communicate or capture in a wholly online experience. So for me, the face-to-face is going to be always an absolutely vital part of the central part of what we do in Trinity. I think it’s actually— the pandemic has been useful in a way that it has highlighted that the sort of very bullish utopian discussions about whole move to online for universities is actually not what students want, it’s not what teachers want, and we see the real deficits. It’s fine as part of what we offer, it can be very good for some cohorts of students, but I would not see it as something that we will pursue as a dominant mode of teaching. Into the future.
Aoifinn Devitt: Thank you for that. And just wanted to move to other aspects of the Provost role. Your website mentions your distinct leadership style, and you also speak about ethical leadership in areas from sustainability to climate change to pandemic management. And how do you characterize your leadership style, and how do you weave some of these aspects of ethical leadership into it?
Linda Hogan: Yes, it’s always very interesting to be asked to reflect on one’s leadership style because In a way, that’s also something that I think colleagues who experience it would probably have something to say about. But I think for me, it’s about a combination of idealism and pragmatism. I think as a leader, one must be optimistic and see the best of one’s institution, what it can be, and also be able to make decisions and pragmatic judgments about what is possible in the immediate or medium term. So I think that I do have that, at least I try and learn and cultivate that kind of combination of idealism and pragmatism. I think the other thing I would say is, at least for me, it’s very important to have an inclusive leadership style, and that for me is all about collaboration with people, listening to people, not listening only to the loudest voices, because I think one has to pay attention to those voices that have something to say but that are not the loudest ones, and that for me is also about listening. Leadership is also about building teams and creating consensus and building bridges among people, because I think in leadership it’s never just about one person engaging with the, know, you a range of other individuals. It’s also about the team one builds and the kind of culture and values one instills and inspires in a team, and then what they can instill and inspire in others. So those are my thoughts about my leadership style. I hope that my colleagues who’ve worked with me over the years would confirm that, but that’s certainly what I aim to achieve as I am in leadership roles. In terms of how we instill that ethical leadership in relation to all that we do, well, It’s about living our values. I think when I spoke earlier about universities working in and for the public good, it’s really how do we do that. Well, we do it by, first of all, in the programs we teach and, you know, what we impart to our students and the kind of research that we do and what drives us. But it’s also about the values that the university embodies, how we embody them in our own organization, and then For example, like addressing climate change, making sure that we’re not just talking about the values, but also we’re changing our practices to become more sustainable. So it is about living our values and expecting that we make sure that our practice aligns with the values we espouse. And I think that runs across the board, not only from the research we do and the teaching we do, but also the investments we have, and are they oriented towards sustainability? The philanthropy we seek— are our partners working in ways that we are proud of and that we can endorse? So the ethical leadership, I think, has very significant impacts for all that we do, and I believe that what we do and how we do what we do should be intimately connected and should be driven by the values that we espouse.
Aoifinn Devitt: I just want to get back to the point about inclusive leadership, because this is something that is very close to my heart. You know, the podcast series I’ve developed is primarily about inclusion and diversity in the world of investment. I know that this is certainly an area close to your heart in terms of the research that you do, But what are your impressions of the experience of women and diverse groups, both in academia in general and in Trinity in particular?
Linda Hogan: Well, I think in the last 10 years Trinity has improved significantly in terms of the culture of inclusion, not only for women but also for diverse groups, but I think we still have a long way to go. When I was Vice-Provost, we first of all introduced the Athena Swan Initiative, which was one where— you’re probably familiar with it— but every school and department, you know, needs to look at its own structures, its career profile, how it supports equality and diversity, and also develop a plan to improve it over a period of time. And that’s been very successful, I think. Not only has it meant that the conversations about gender equality and diversity are conversations that are had across the whole university, but also it means that we’re constantly challenging ourselves at each school or department level to make changes. But there is a long way to go, and I think we have to be far more intentional and focused in our efforts, driven by the conviction, which I am, that diversity supports excellence. It’s not in competition with excellence, but it actually supports it. And so I think For me, at least, we have to do this at a whole series of levels. You know, we know, for example, that when we recruit men and women at the early career stage, that there is a period of time when women find it more difficult because of family responsibilities to keep their research careers up and running. And in our— in many fields, once you have a gap at all, it’s very difficult to restart. So, we have to have initiatives that enable women to restart their research careers or, you know, enhance their research careers when they come back from maternity leave. We have very little real substantive childcare provision in the university, and that’s a big problem, I think, in terms of, you know, concrete supports for gender equality, because especially in a city campus, centre you know, it represents a big challenge for women, particularly— not only women, but particularly women— in terms of being present, in terms of their capacity to participate in all of the things that they’re expected to as academics. And there are other things like workload and making sure that particularly minority groups are not carrying all of the burden of representation of their groups, because that can also be a significant factor in drawing them away from those aspects of the career that are actually rewarded at promotions time. So are there So, lots of practical things we can do, but we can also reform our promotion system to make sure that our criteria are those that are appropriate for each stage. And that is one of the other things that I think would make a big difference when we think about how in concrete terms we can advance equality, not only for women, but for other— call them minority groups, because women certainly at the senior level are still in a minority. And I think when you make these practical changes, you in time change the culture. I think the biggest problem we have is, as much of the analysis has shown, if we just keep making incremental changes in the way we have been doing for the last 20 years, it will take, know, you I don’t know, 100 or more years to— before we have parity and equality. So we do need to work much more effectively on the factors that create the conditions for success. And I think where women and other groups have meaningful conditions that enhance and support their success, they do succeed.
Aoifinn Devitt: And how about access? How about balance in the student body? Do you think this needs to be improved, i.e., that more students need to have access to Trinity perhaps?
Linda Hogan: Definitely. I think we’ve got a very successful access program in the sense that when students come to Trinity from non-traditional backgrounds and come through our access route, they perform as well as anybody else who’s come to the university. That is not the experience in other Irish universities where there’s a big attrition rate, where they have larger numbers of people coming through their access program. So we have an excellent program it’s just not extensive enough and it’s not broad enough. And so that is one of the things that I would be very much focused on, is broadening access by increasing the percentage of students from non-traditional backgrounds. Also, we do very well in terms of engaging students in the immediate community around Trinity, which is of course appropriate, but I think our reach into the rest of the country is probably not very good. And so, you know, the kinds of relationships we have with DESH schools in our immediate environment. Those should really be, I think, developed around the country as well, and that is one of the ways I think we would increase diversity as well. For all our good work, know, you the vast majority of students still come from a very small number of schools in the Dublin area, and I think that is one of the things one would like to see evolve over the next decade as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, there’s certainly so much to talk about in this respect. I would like to get to some quickfire questions back to your personal journey just to finish us off here. Who were some of the key people who influenced you throughout your career so far and how?
Linda Hogan: Yeah, it’s a great question. So I would want to begin by saying that my parents were extremely supportive of the choices I made and they were really supportive and education and, you know, advanced education, and that was really important for me. As I was reflecting on this, I realized I was barely taught by any women in my undergraduate and master’s degree, actually in PhD as well. The study of religion was very male-dominated, but there are a number of people who stood out. There was a theologian, a brilliant theologian called Enda McDonagh, who has been an extraordinary friend and mentor to me, and what he taught me was the importance of interdisciplinarity. He taught me that in order to understand religion, you have to read politics, history, poetry, literature. And really, even before the language of interdisciplinarity was current, I think I was doing my research and educating myself in an interdisciplinary manner. That was very influential. And I suppose the other person who was hugely influential influential early in my career was a woman called Professor Kim Knott at the University of Leeds. And again, she is a very active, engaged researcher. She was the person who I think, from whom I learned that as a woman in academia, you have to be very focused. In a way, you’ve got to work twice as hard, but that if you do, the rewards are great. And she was also a very influential mentor and guide through my career. I think the other thing on that I would say is that it’s really only as I’ve reflected on my own career that I’ve realized how influential key people were, even though we didn’t have the language of mentor in those days really in the same ways we use it now in academia at least. But I think supports from people at critical times That’s really important for early career academics because it is quite a lonely road.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s very interesting actually that you point out that we didn’t perhaps have the language back then because it is true that it’s become so normal now to expect not only a mentor but also a sponsor.
Linda Hogan: Yes.
Aoifinn Devitt: Yeah, and there’s a lovely interview you’ve done, I think it’s on your website, where you speak about looking for the light. Besides that, are there any other— maybe you can explain what you mean by that, but also are there any other creed or a motto that you have that you let guide you through your life?
Linda Hogan: Yes, there are. I mean, I think the most fundamental thing is got to know who you are and what your values are and what is important. And though we don’t really talk in those terms all the time, I think we show what’s important every day to us. And so that’s key. I think the other thing is I’ve really learned is the importance of never stopping learning, and I think academia teaches you that, you know, the joy and the pleasure of learning. On the find the light and build around it, you know, that’s again something that I have learned, especially in management actually. It’s very easy when you’re in a management role or a leadership role to be fixated on, you know, the problems and what you have to fix, and of course you do have to, address those. But I have found in my life that the most beneficial way of really running anything is to find where the energy is, where the optimism is, and then support that, because that is what in the end will lift an organization and lift the research and lift the education. So that’s what I mean by finding the light, not to be distracted or overly focused on those energy-sapping areas that are problematic, but actually, where’s the energy? Where’s the optimism? And let’s support that.
Aoifinn Devitt: Those are very inspiring words, but not only inspiring, I think also quite actionable. Really, we can all probably translate them into some situation in our own lives. So thank you for that. My last question is around any advice you might have for your younger self, maybe for that young college student Imanoush Is there anything that you know now that you wish you had known then?
Linda Hogan: I think I would say to my younger self, one day you will realize that perfection does not exist, and that will be very liberating. And the reason I say that is because I think many women, young women in particular, really do strive for perfection. They’re very hard on themselves. And when you realize that that is an unattainable goal and that what’s important is to continue to strive to do your best, that is, I think, very liberating. And I think had I realized early on that perfection doesn’t exist, I would have been a lot easier on myself.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you for that beautiful reminder. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, Linda. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. It’s been a pleasure.
Linda Hogan: A pleasure, Aoifinnen.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinnen Devitt. Thank you for listening to this special 50 Faces Focus Series. To hear the rest of the series, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Production support for this series was kindly provided by DLA Piper Ireland and Hermes Fund Managers Ireland Limited. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment or legal advice. All views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations or affiliations of the host or any guest.
