Aoifinn Devitt: This series is brought to you with the kind support of Eversheds Sutherland. As a global top 10 law firm, Eversheds Sutherland provides legal services to a global client base. With more than 3,000 lawyers, the firm operates in over 70 offices in more than 30 countries across Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and the United States. The firm recognizes that having diverse talent across its business brings many benefits. It is committed to accessing a wide range of views, perspectives, and thinking in all of its teams, and in this way is building a culture of inclusion where each person feels able to be their true self at work and reach their full potential. Diversity and inclusion is fundamental to the firm’s purpose of helping their clients, their people, and their communities to thrive, and inclusive is one of its 5 values.
Nancy Stern: The top-down approach doesn’t work with everyone. You can have a really clear policy, a really clear structure, but I think the thing that really makes the difference sometimes is personal interactions. And we’ve heard this in the case with vaccine reluctance, for example, that people are looking to people they know and people they have daily contact with more than necessarily higher-level policy. So in my own experience, things that have really advanced my career and have colored the way that I think about helping others It’s been largely personal conversations.
Aoifinn Devitt: Why is it relationships and the personal touch that are key to career success in the end? Find out more next. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Nancy Stern, who is CEO and board member at Alston Holdings LLC. She’s had a 27-year career starting as a lawyer and transitioning to a financial and business oversight role. In her latest role, which saw her assume the CEO position in 2020, she led a successful sale of that company that closed in 2021. Nancy holds a number of board roles, including as a non-executive director of eXp Global, an engineering and architectural services firm, as well as at Alston Holdings. She was the recipient of the Woman of Achievement Award granted by the Anti-Defamation League in 2019. Welcome, Nancy. Thanks for joining me today.
Nancy Stern: Thanks, it’s a pleasure to be here.
Aoifinn Devitt: Can we start with your background and what first interested you in going into law and this particular field?
Nancy Stern: Sure. I grew up in a small town in Michigan, and I worked at our family business, which was a John Deere dealership, from a young age. I did everything from cleaning the bathrooms and helping in accounting to sandblasting equipment. We did not have any lawyers in the family, but my father served on the board of directors of a local bank and knew a few lawyers. And for some reason, he thought that I would make a good lawyer. So he encouraged me in that direction. He helped me get a job at a small law firm when I was 15. I worked there in the summers in high school. I typed from dictation, answered the phones, helped with accounting.. And I was able to do that because I had gone to this rural high school that was somewhat vocationally focused. And so I learned shorthand and accounting and typing in high school. The lawyers at this law firm were father and son, and I did the job that the wife and mother normally did when she golfed in the summers. So after high school, I went to University of Michigan. I majored in economics. And then I went on to the law school there at Michigan, and I was able to work as a teaching assistant for a professor who had a joint appointment in the economics department and in the law school. And the intersection of law and economics at that time was a very popular topic. So that was very fun and engaging for me, as much as law school can be fun. After law school, I clerked for a federal judge and then started in the litigation department of a large law firm in Chicago. After 2 years, I transferred to the corporate department of the same law firm. One of the partners that I had done litigation for told me that he wanted me on his team and helped me get integrated into the corporate department. I really had at that first firm some really fantastic teachers who took the time to bring me up to speed on corporate law issues, which was very meaningful to me. I had enjoyed the litigation work, especially writing briefs, but the corporate work was more forward-looking and so more appealing from that perspective. And I liked the idea of helping companies achieve their strategic goals, either growing through acquisition, raising money through securities offerings, or getting liquidity from the sale of the company. So I stayed at that firm for 10 years. I learned a lot. I made partner. I became vice chair of the corporate department. And then I was recruited to another large law firm, which was Catton. I’d been on the other side of a deal from a partner who, unbeknownst to me, was the head of lateral partner recruiting at Catton. He remembered me, and when they were looking to add a new partner a few years later, he reached out and asked me to join him at Catton. So I stayed at Catton for 7 years and developed my own clients there.
Aoifinn Devitt: In terms of corporate law, I also started in corporate law and I had had no training or no even concept of what corporate law looked like. And it didn’t seem that the law school I went to, at least, was in a position to prepare for that. Did you find that you’d had any preparation for corporate law or was most of it learned in the apprenticeship mode that law firms can create?
Nancy Stern: I mean, certainly I had taken the basic corporate governance classes and contracts classes, which had some relevance. But a lot of the practice of law, particularly in the M&A area, is really something you have to learn on the job, I think. And that’s why it was so important that I was working in a firm where the partners were very skilled and were willing to take the time to show me what to do. Because even if you go to a great law school, there’s so much of that important practice That just has to be learned on the job, I think. So in 2013, through a client relationship, I was approached with the opportunity to join Alston, which is the company I’m still at, as general counsel. And the CEO was looking for someone to help him make big decisions, and that’s what made it an appealing role to me. So I guess one of the themes of my career has been that people I’ve worked with have reached out to me and asked me to help them in another role. I wasn’t really looking for a job either when I moved from my first firm to Catton or when I left Catton and moved to Alston, but those are opportunities that came from people that I had worked with.
Aoifinn Devitt: What was different about a GC role? What did you learn there?
Nancy Stern: One of the things I learned is that the scope of a GC role can really vary, especially at a smaller privately held company. But the one that I got at Alston was really meaty. Because it was in an industry where there was a lot of regulatory uncertainty and the stakes for the business were pretty high. I was also the company’s first GC and people were glad to have help. So we didn’t have a culture of resistance to the legal function, which was very helpful. I think people were looking for a thought partner. And so even though I didn’t know a lot about trading when I joined, I was able to develop that industry knowledge fairly quickly and was able to contribute a different perspective based on my experience up until that point and my business judgment. So I think that that was a great opportunity. And then when the CEO that had hired me left Alston, I had an opportunity to take on some more responsibility. So first I had legal and compliance and communications and investor relations, and then I got HR and trade operations and risk. And then I had the opportunity when the CEO left and the former president became CEO, they didn’t replace the president. And so after a period of time of taking on increasing responsibility, I was promoted to chief operating officer and then with the CFO reporting to me. And then a year later I was promoted to CEO.
Aoifinn Devitt: And in terms of the leap then, in terms of skills needed, was there a big gap in terms of skills you needed to develop as CEO? Had you kind of been developing them over the years that you transitioned into a COO, well, first into an in-house role and then COO and then CEO? Do you find that there was a natural transition there?
Nancy Stern: I think a lot of the skills that lawyers tend to have tend to be very transferable. One of the things that I think most lawyers have to guard against is not being too risk-averse, because I think that’s an occupational hazard that a lot of lawyers share. But sometimes just asking thoughtful questions and being able to analyze the pros and cons of various decisions, those are very lawyerly skills. Learning the core of the business is really important, but I think some of the interpersonal skills, communication, general leadership skills are really very transferable.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s a really interesting point, actually. I think the point you made about culture too earlier around the resistance to the legal function, because obviously there probably is that culture in some organizations, but equally when the legal function is one that’s very commercially oriented maybe and can address some of that risk aversion you mentioned, maybe that’s the key to getting a kind of a joined-up culture.
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think so. I had the benefit of being able to start with a clean slate, which not everyone gets when they go in-house. But I think my colleagues at Alston saw me as a person who helped them do what they wanted to do and protected them, which they appreciated, rather than having the legal department be the place that tells you you can’t do what you want to do. So tapping into some of the creativity was important.
Aoifinn Devitt: And having come to the peak of that particular journey, at Allston most recently. What would you say were some of the highs and lows of your legal career looking back?
Nancy Stern: Well, one of the things that happened that I certainly did not predict or couldn’t have seen coming is that one of my former M&A clients from Catton reached out to me in 2015 and asked for my help. I had represented him in the sale of his company to a PE-backed strategic buyer. And 5 years later, he was looking to buy out the PE firm’s stake in the acquirer. The company had not done very well after the sale, and it was now ripe for a turnaround. So I told him, listen, I’m no longer in private practice. I can’t do a deal for you. But he convinced me to help him, and my boss at Alston didn’t object. So I did that legal work on nights and weekends, and we were able to close that deal in December 2015. And then he asked me to join the board of the company, which I’ve done for the past more than 6 years. And seeing that company, which is now thriving, seeing that turnaround process has been really gratifying. And it’s also given me a chance to attend board meetings, both from the perspective of a board member and also from an executive presenting to the board. I think having the ability to look at both sides has been really valuable to me. The other thing I would say is that I can’t always tell in the moment whether something is a high point or low point. Sometimes it requires a little bit of time and perspective to look back and say that a particular event was pivotal because Although most of my career opportunities have come from people that I work with, sometimes there was a gap of years between when I did the work and when that opportunity came up. So what I try to focus on is really not so much is this a high point or a low point, but just focusing on the things that I can control because I’ve learned that things can just unfold in unpredictable ways.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s really interesting. I also like a lot of these podcasts were recorded in the peak of the pandemic, so 2 years ago, and that was obviously a low point for many, certainly in terms of uncertainty. And I love the expression, which was, if your life and your career was a book, what would this chapter say? It often kind of lets you kind of step out and take the lens back and take the bigger picture perhaps, as opposed to focusing on the moment. So let’s move to the industry now. It’s been an industry where you have flourished, but it may not necessarily be that way for everyone. Can you speak about what you think of the diversity in the industry today, how it’s improved over the course of your career?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think diversity in, in financial services is not great, and particularly in trading, there aren’t very many female traders. That particular industry has become more and more technology focused, and there aren’t a lot of female technologists working in that area. So I can’t say that I’ve been happy with the progress in the financial services area. I think that law firms are doing a little bit better than financial services firms, but my own experience was really more colored by individual interactions. The CEO who hired me was a person of color and his successor was a Black man. And having the opportunity to have candid conversations with him about topics that people don’t always discuss at work, about race, about gender, I think was extremely meaningful to me. And I think is going to have an effect on my career going forward. But it’s tough to make really big progress when I think so much has to be done at the individual level. And I’m hopeful that we’re making progress, but it’s not really showing up in the numbers in a way that I would like to see it so far.
Aoifinn Devitt: And what do you mean when you say so much has to be done at the individual level? Do you mean in terms of attracting the right candidate and then mentoring and nurturing that candidate so that they do succeed?
Nancy Stern: Well, I think one of the things that we’ve seen during the pandemic is that the top-down approach doesn’t work with everyone. You can have a really clear policy, a really clear structure, but I think the thing that really makes the difference sometimes is personal interactions. And we’ve heard this in the case with vaccine reluctance, for example, that people are looking to people they know and people they have daily contact with more than necessarily a higher-level policy. So in my own experience, things that have really advanced my career and have colored the way that I think about helping others, it’s been largely personal conversations. And I think some of us have had a little bit broader perspective over the past couple of years. But the fact that we’re not together as much anymore, I’m concerned that that could have an adverse effect. On how people relate to people who are different than they are and are able to reach out and help more junior people who could use help.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a really interesting insight. And just in terms of what’s already in the industry in terms of infrastructure right now to try to make a difference, whether that be networks or affinity groups or like-minded individuals getting together in Chicago over lunch, Do you think there’s anything that’s particularly effective that you’ve seen?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think affinity groups are helpful, especially ones that are not just within a particular firm, but that cross the industry. I think those can give rise to opportunities to help each other, which I think can be very helpful. And also just sharing our personal stories and seeing role models and sometimes even being a role model. I think those can be really helpful and sometimes giving people a source of support and information that’s outside their firm. So I would certainly encourage people to join that sort of affinity group if they can. There are several good women-focused ones in Chicago and I’m sure other locations as well. I think that’s really valuable. I think it’s worth the time to make those connections.
Aoifinn Devitt: And just in terms of optimizing for success, what are the kind of skills that you think are best suited to a career like you’ve had? We mentioned before some of the people skills, the ability to reduce complex concepts into more understandable, digestible soundbites, perhaps. Are there any particular skills or strengths that you think are most useful in an area that is highly charged and can be high pressure?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think It certainly changes over the course of your career. Earlier in my career, I was really focused on being conscientious and being helpful and solving problems and being available to help people and solve their problems and thinking about things from their perspective. So I think empathy is a big one. It can be a tricky balance between drawing boundaries that allow you to have a healthy personal life and being accommodating to the needs of others. Self-care is so important, I think, both personally and professionally, but nobody’s going to hire you directly to do self-care. So I think being intentional about our boundaries between our needs and our colleagues’ and clients’ needs is something that’s really important. And as I get more senior in my career, the interpersonal aspect has become more and more important. Being willing to be vulnerable and connecting with people on a personal level, I think it’s more important later in your career. Vulnerability isn’t necessarily something people lead with when they’re really junior, at least I didn’t. So there’s a shift, and I think that’s a skill in itself. Is continuing to question what you’re doing and think about sharpening skills that may be becoming more important than they were earlier in your career.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s very interesting because most of the skills we need in our senior ranks of our career, we will have been developing over the years. But it seems that maybe we’re less likely to develop those interpersonal relationships or skills maybe early on, but they become more important later. So one wonders, is it more difficult if we haven’t kind of gained practice in that, if we haven’t got comfortable being uncomfortable?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I really like that phrase, being comfortable being uncomfortable. I think that’s a skill that is going to be helpful throughout life. I think embracing the awkward is something that can help a person both at a younger age and at a more senior level. That’s definitely a part of it, I think, is a level of humility and vulnerability and just realizing that everyone, regardless of the stage in their career, is going to have to adapt and think about shifting their skills as the world changes and as their role changes.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you mentioned empathy before because I think another critical piece of that when someone’s experiencing that discomfort with having a vulnerable conversation is that the other side of that has to be giving grace to that person who may say, have some malapropism or put their foot in their mouth or say something that’s clumsy at the time because they’re uncomfortable, is allowing them essentially the safe space to make those mistakes in order to grow and not having it— Yeah, no, it’s a delicate balance, but I think we all have to be kind of invested in that. I want to just move now to some of your board roles because you do have a number of board roles. We mentioned some already. And I like to provide in these podcasts as much sort of some guidance as to what it means to be a good chair or a good board member because I think there’s actually no instruction manual in that respect. In your view, what does it take to be a good board member and what do you try to bring to your board roles?
Nancy Stern: Well, one little motto that I’ve heard that I think is good advice is nose in, fingers out. I think it’s important to be supportive of management and not overstepping your role in terms of trying to get into the role of management, but to ask thoughtful questions and to not be afraid to go beyond the scope of what’s presented and think, is there something that might be missing from this presentation? I think there’s more and more responsibility being placed on boards for things like product safety and cyber incidents that might not necessarily be a part of management’s presentation. So thinking about what might be missing here and asking thoughtful questions, but at the same time, really being supportive of management and not micromanaging. I think that’s the tricky part.
Aoifinn Devitt: It echoes what somebody else said, which was eyes on, hands off, a very, very similar concept. And also one of the sense I have is that certainly with ESG taking more and more prominence, that boards need to be— you mentioned cybersecurity— have an element of confidence in even navigating these areas or even knowing what questions to ask. But equally, because these are highly complex areas, that confidence may not be there. There may be a sense it’s better just to look the other way or not ask the question. Do you find that a good board will have a culture of embracing a board member that speaks up, for example, as opposed to simply ticks boxes?
Nancy Stern: Yes, yes, I think so. And that’s the part where I think the humility and the vulnerability come in and saying, I’m not an expert on cybersecurity. Could you bring someone in to present to the board that will help us understand what the company is doing and where the vulnerabilities might be. I think that’s the board’s duty to raise the topic, but not to do it in an accusatory or inflammatory way. And I think the best boards are helpful to management, certainly in an oversight role, but in a helpful way.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you’re also involved in a number of other industry and civic groups. Some of those were mentioned in the introduction as well. Can you speak about any of those that are particularly close to your heart?
Nancy Stern: Yes, you know, I really enjoy connecting with other people and trying to find ways to connect people to each other. So getting involved in various different civic groups and professional groups has been a part of that. And then there’s also the element of trying to contribute to causes that I care about. I’m very interested in education as one, and then I got involved with the Anti-Defamation League as their Woman of Achievement honoree in 2018, and I’ve since helped with the planning of that event each year, and that raises money to provide education and support services to prevent hatred. Hate crimes and hate speech that affect people in minority groups, which is something that I believe strongly in. I think it can be difficult, especially for women who are raising a family and have demanding careers, to spend a lot of time in not-for-profit activities. So I try to find ways that I can contribute that have as big of an impact as I can. Given the time that I have available.
Aoifinn Devitt: And just getting back to your personal story now for a few reflections, were there any key people throughout your career whose influence really had a notable effect on either your career trajectory or how you saw the world?
Nancy Stern: Definitely, definitely. And I referred to some of them as I’ve told my story here. I think about my dad helping me get a job at age 15 in a law firm. Knowing that I didn’t really have exposure to lawyers and helping me get that exposure was super helpful. I think about the professor who hired me in law school to be his teaching assistant, which was super meaningful. The partner at my first law firm who helped me transition from being a litigator to being a corporate lawyer, and, and many partners throughout my career, and even more recently at Austin, just Having individual conversations that have opened my eyes to other people’s perspectives, those have all been, I think, really essential to the development of my career.
Aoifinn Devitt: Was there any one piece of advice or word of wisdom that you’ve carried with you from some of these interactions?
Nancy Stern: You know, I can’t think of a particular catchphrase, but my takeaway has really been centered on empathy, centering on what do other people need and want here, and how can I take that into account. I think it’s easy to get off the track by focusing a lot internally and focusing on maybe your idea of expectations, but really trying to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. I think helps with a lot of things. So that’s one thing I focus on.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I think that’s a very appropriate place to bring our conversation to a close because it is that empathy and that desire to help people, to give back some of the talents that you’ve received and to share what you’ve learned that I really take away from this podcast, which has been a very nuanced and thoughtful discussion of areas that I thought I knew fairly well, having trod it in some of them myself. And you’ve had an extraordinary career, but I think now that your ability to reduce it to some of these very poignant takeaways has been very powerful. So thank you for coming here and for sharing your insights with us.
Nancy Stern: Well, thank you so much for the opportunity. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring lawyers and their stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: This series is brought to you with the kind support of Eversheds Sutherland. As a global top 10 law firm, Eversheds Sutherland provides legal services to a global client base. With more than 3,000 lawyers, the firm operates in over 70 offices in more than 30 countries across Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and the United States. The firm recognizes that having diverse talent across its business brings many benefits. It is committed to accessing a wide range of views, perspectives, and thinking in all of its teams, and in this way is building a culture of inclusion where each person feels able to be their true self at work and reach their full potential. Diversity and inclusion is fundamental to the firm’s purpose of helping their clients, their people, and their communities to thrive, and inclusive is one of its 5 values.
Nancy Stern: The top-down approach doesn’t work with everyone. You can have a really clear policy, a really clear structure, but I think the thing that really makes the difference sometimes is personal interactions. And we’ve heard this in the case with vaccine reluctance, for example, that people are looking to people they know and people they have daily contact with more than necessarily higher-level policy. So in my own experience, things that have really advanced my career and have colored the way that I think about helping others It’s been largely personal conversations.
Aoifinn Devitt: Why is it relationships and the personal touch that are key to career success in the end? Find out more next. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Nancy Stern, who is CEO and board member at Alston Holdings LLC. She’s had a 27-year career starting as a lawyer and transitioning to a financial and business oversight role. In her latest role, which saw her assume the CEO position in 2020, she led a successful sale of that company that closed in 2021. Nancy holds a number of board roles, including as a non-executive director of eXp Global, an engineering and architectural services firm, as well as at Alston Holdings. She was the recipient of the Woman of Achievement Award granted by the Anti-Defamation League in 2019. Welcome, Nancy. Thanks for joining me today.
Nancy Stern: Thanks, it’s a pleasure to be here.
Aoifinn Devitt: Can we start with your background and what first interested you in going into law and this particular field?
Nancy Stern: Sure. I grew up in a small town in Michigan, and I worked at our family business, which was a John Deere dealership, from a young age. I did everything from cleaning the bathrooms and helping in accounting to sandblasting equipment. We did not have any lawyers in the family, but my father served on the board of directors of a local bank and knew a few lawyers. And for some reason, he thought that I would make a good lawyer. So he encouraged me in that direction. He helped me get a job at a small law firm when I was 15. I worked there in the summers in high school. I typed from dictation, answered the phones, helped with accounting.. And I was able to do that because I had gone to this rural high school that was somewhat vocationally focused. And so I learned shorthand and accounting and typing in high school. The lawyers at this law firm were father and son, and I did the job that the wife and mother normally did when she golfed in the summers. So after high school, I went to University of Michigan. I majored in economics. And then I went on to the law school there at Michigan, and I was able to work as a teaching assistant for a professor who had a joint appointment in the economics department and in the law school. And the intersection of law and economics at that time was a very popular topic. So that was very fun and engaging for me, as much as law school can be fun. After law school, I clerked for a federal judge and then started in the litigation department of a large law firm in Chicago. After 2 years, I transferred to the corporate department of the same law firm. One of the partners that I had done litigation for told me that he wanted me on his team and helped me get integrated into the corporate department. I really had at that first firm some really fantastic teachers who took the time to bring me up to speed on corporate law issues, which was very meaningful to me. I had enjoyed the litigation work, especially writing briefs, but the corporate work was more forward-looking and so more appealing from that perspective. And I liked the idea of helping companies achieve their strategic goals, either growing through acquisition, raising money through securities offerings, or getting liquidity from the sale of the company. So I stayed at that firm for 10 years. I learned a lot. I made partner. I became vice chair of the corporate department. And then I was recruited to another large law firm, which was Catton. I’d been on the other side of a deal from a partner who, unbeknownst to me, was the head of lateral partner recruiting at Catton. He remembered me, and when they were looking to add a new partner a few years later, he reached out and asked me to join him at Catton. So I stayed at Catton for 7 years and developed my own clients there.
Aoifinn Devitt: In terms of corporate law, I also started in corporate law and I had had no training or no even concept of what corporate law looked like. And it didn’t seem that the law school I went to, at least, was in a position to prepare for that. Did you find that you’d had any preparation for corporate law or was most of it learned in the apprenticeship mode that law firms can create?
Nancy Stern: I mean, certainly I had taken the basic corporate governance classes and contracts classes, which had some relevance. But a lot of the practice of law, particularly in the M&A area, is really something you have to learn on the job, I think. And that’s why it was so important that I was working in a firm where the partners were very skilled and were willing to take the time to show me what to do. Because even if you go to a great law school, there’s so much of that important practice That just has to be learned on the job, I think. So in 2013, through a client relationship, I was approached with the opportunity to join Alston, which is the company I’m still at, as general counsel. And the CEO was looking for someone to help him make big decisions, and that’s what made it an appealing role to me. So I guess one of the themes of my career has been that people I’ve worked with have reached out to me and asked me to help them in another role. I wasn’t really looking for a job either when I moved from my first firm to Catton or when I left Catton and moved to Alston, but those are opportunities that came from people that I had worked with.
Aoifinn Devitt: What was different about a GC role? What did you learn there?
Nancy Stern: One of the things I learned is that the scope of a GC role can really vary, especially at a smaller privately held company. But the one that I got at Alston was really meaty. Because it was in an industry where there was a lot of regulatory uncertainty and the stakes for the business were pretty high. I was also the company’s first GC and people were glad to have help. So we didn’t have a culture of resistance to the legal function, which was very helpful. I think people were looking for a thought partner. And so even though I didn’t know a lot about trading when I joined, I was able to develop that industry knowledge fairly quickly and was able to contribute a different perspective based on my experience up until that point and my business judgment. So I think that that was a great opportunity. And then when the CEO that had hired me left Alston, I had an opportunity to take on some more responsibility. So first I had legal and compliance and communications and investor relations, and then I got HR and trade operations and risk. And then I had the opportunity when the CEO left and the former president became CEO, they didn’t replace the president. And so after a period of time of taking on increasing responsibility, I was promoted to chief operating officer and then with the CFO reporting to me. And then a year later I was promoted to CEO.
Aoifinn Devitt: And in terms of the leap then, in terms of skills needed, was there a big gap in terms of skills you needed to develop as CEO? Had you kind of been developing them over the years that you transitioned into a COO, well, first into an in-house role and then COO and then CEO? Do you find that there was a natural transition there?
Nancy Stern: I think a lot of the skills that lawyers tend to have tend to be very transferable. One of the things that I think most lawyers have to guard against is not being too risk-averse, because I think that’s an occupational hazard that a lot of lawyers share. But sometimes just asking thoughtful questions and being able to analyze the pros and cons of various decisions, those are very lawyerly skills. Learning the core of the business is really important, but I think some of the interpersonal skills, communication, general leadership skills are really very transferable.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s a really interesting point, actually. I think the point you made about culture too earlier around the resistance to the legal function, because obviously there probably is that culture in some organizations, but equally when the legal function is one that’s very commercially oriented maybe and can address some of that risk aversion you mentioned, maybe that’s the key to getting a kind of a joined-up culture.
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think so. I had the benefit of being able to start with a clean slate, which not everyone gets when they go in-house. But I think my colleagues at Alston saw me as a person who helped them do what they wanted to do and protected them, which they appreciated, rather than having the legal department be the place that tells you you can’t do what you want to do. So tapping into some of the creativity was important.
Aoifinn Devitt: And having come to the peak of that particular journey, at Allston most recently. What would you say were some of the highs and lows of your legal career looking back?
Nancy Stern: Well, one of the things that happened that I certainly did not predict or couldn’t have seen coming is that one of my former M&A clients from Catton reached out to me in 2015 and asked for my help. I had represented him in the sale of his company to a PE-backed strategic buyer. And 5 years later, he was looking to buy out the PE firm’s stake in the acquirer. The company had not done very well after the sale, and it was now ripe for a turnaround. So I told him, listen, I’m no longer in private practice. I can’t do a deal for you. But he convinced me to help him, and my boss at Alston didn’t object. So I did that legal work on nights and weekends, and we were able to close that deal in December 2015. And then he asked me to join the board of the company, which I’ve done for the past more than 6 years. And seeing that company, which is now thriving, seeing that turnaround process has been really gratifying. And it’s also given me a chance to attend board meetings, both from the perspective of a board member and also from an executive presenting to the board. I think having the ability to look at both sides has been really valuable to me. The other thing I would say is that I can’t always tell in the moment whether something is a high point or low point. Sometimes it requires a little bit of time and perspective to look back and say that a particular event was pivotal because Although most of my career opportunities have come from people that I work with, sometimes there was a gap of years between when I did the work and when that opportunity came up. So what I try to focus on is really not so much is this a high point or a low point, but just focusing on the things that I can control because I’ve learned that things can just unfold in unpredictable ways.
Aoifinn Devitt: That’s really interesting. I also like a lot of these podcasts were recorded in the peak of the pandemic, so 2 years ago, and that was obviously a low point for many, certainly in terms of uncertainty. And I love the expression, which was, if your life and your career was a book, what would this chapter say? It often kind of lets you kind of step out and take the lens back and take the bigger picture perhaps, as opposed to focusing on the moment. So let’s move to the industry now. It’s been an industry where you have flourished, but it may not necessarily be that way for everyone. Can you speak about what you think of the diversity in the industry today, how it’s improved over the course of your career?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think diversity in, in financial services is not great, and particularly in trading, there aren’t very many female traders. That particular industry has become more and more technology focused, and there aren’t a lot of female technologists working in that area. So I can’t say that I’ve been happy with the progress in the financial services area. I think that law firms are doing a little bit better than financial services firms, but my own experience was really more colored by individual interactions. The CEO who hired me was a person of color and his successor was a Black man. And having the opportunity to have candid conversations with him about topics that people don’t always discuss at work, about race, about gender, I think was extremely meaningful to me. And I think is going to have an effect on my career going forward. But it’s tough to make really big progress when I think so much has to be done at the individual level. And I’m hopeful that we’re making progress, but it’s not really showing up in the numbers in a way that I would like to see it so far.
Aoifinn Devitt: And what do you mean when you say so much has to be done at the individual level? Do you mean in terms of attracting the right candidate and then mentoring and nurturing that candidate so that they do succeed?
Nancy Stern: Well, I think one of the things that we’ve seen during the pandemic is that the top-down approach doesn’t work with everyone. You can have a really clear policy, a really clear structure, but I think the thing that really makes the difference sometimes is personal interactions. And we’ve heard this in the case with vaccine reluctance, for example, that people are looking to people they know and people they have daily contact with more than necessarily a higher-level policy. So in my own experience, things that have really advanced my career and have colored the way that I think about helping others, it’s been largely personal conversations. And I think some of us have had a little bit broader perspective over the past couple of years. But the fact that we’re not together as much anymore, I’m concerned that that could have an adverse effect. On how people relate to people who are different than they are and are able to reach out and help more junior people who could use help.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a really interesting insight. And just in terms of what’s already in the industry in terms of infrastructure right now to try to make a difference, whether that be networks or affinity groups or like-minded individuals getting together in Chicago over lunch, Do you think there’s anything that’s particularly effective that you’ve seen?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think affinity groups are helpful, especially ones that are not just within a particular firm, but that cross the industry. I think those can give rise to opportunities to help each other, which I think can be very helpful. And also just sharing our personal stories and seeing role models and sometimes even being a role model. I think those can be really helpful and sometimes giving people a source of support and information that’s outside their firm. So I would certainly encourage people to join that sort of affinity group if they can. There are several good women-focused ones in Chicago and I’m sure other locations as well. I think that’s really valuable. I think it’s worth the time to make those connections.
Aoifinn Devitt: And just in terms of optimizing for success, what are the kind of skills that you think are best suited to a career like you’ve had? We mentioned before some of the people skills, the ability to reduce complex concepts into more understandable, digestible soundbites, perhaps. Are there any particular skills or strengths that you think are most useful in an area that is highly charged and can be high pressure?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I think It certainly changes over the course of your career. Earlier in my career, I was really focused on being conscientious and being helpful and solving problems and being available to help people and solve their problems and thinking about things from their perspective. So I think empathy is a big one. It can be a tricky balance between drawing boundaries that allow you to have a healthy personal life and being accommodating to the needs of others. Self-care is so important, I think, both personally and professionally, but nobody’s going to hire you directly to do self-care. So I think being intentional about our boundaries between our needs and our colleagues’ and clients’ needs is something that’s really important. And as I get more senior in my career, the interpersonal aspect has become more and more important. Being willing to be vulnerable and connecting with people on a personal level, I think it’s more important later in your career. Vulnerability isn’t necessarily something people lead with when they’re really junior, at least I didn’t. So there’s a shift, and I think that’s a skill in itself. Is continuing to question what you’re doing and think about sharpening skills that may be becoming more important than they were earlier in your career.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s very interesting because most of the skills we need in our senior ranks of our career, we will have been developing over the years. But it seems that maybe we’re less likely to develop those interpersonal relationships or skills maybe early on, but they become more important later. So one wonders, is it more difficult if we haven’t kind of gained practice in that, if we haven’t got comfortable being uncomfortable?
Nancy Stern: Yeah, I really like that phrase, being comfortable being uncomfortable. I think that’s a skill that is going to be helpful throughout life. I think embracing the awkward is something that can help a person both at a younger age and at a more senior level. That’s definitely a part of it, I think, is a level of humility and vulnerability and just realizing that everyone, regardless of the stage in their career, is going to have to adapt and think about shifting their skills as the world changes and as their role changes.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you mentioned empathy before because I think another critical piece of that when someone’s experiencing that discomfort with having a vulnerable conversation is that the other side of that has to be giving grace to that person who may say, have some malapropism or put their foot in their mouth or say something that’s clumsy at the time because they’re uncomfortable, is allowing them essentially the safe space to make those mistakes in order to grow and not having it— Yeah, no, it’s a delicate balance, but I think we all have to be kind of invested in that. I want to just move now to some of your board roles because you do have a number of board roles. We mentioned some already. And I like to provide in these podcasts as much sort of some guidance as to what it means to be a good chair or a good board member because I think there’s actually no instruction manual in that respect. In your view, what does it take to be a good board member and what do you try to bring to your board roles?
Nancy Stern: Well, one little motto that I’ve heard that I think is good advice is nose in, fingers out. I think it’s important to be supportive of management and not overstepping your role in terms of trying to get into the role of management, but to ask thoughtful questions and to not be afraid to go beyond the scope of what’s presented and think, is there something that might be missing from this presentation? I think there’s more and more responsibility being placed on boards for things like product safety and cyber incidents that might not necessarily be a part of management’s presentation. So thinking about what might be missing here and asking thoughtful questions, but at the same time, really being supportive of management and not micromanaging. I think that’s the tricky part.
Aoifinn Devitt: It echoes what somebody else said, which was eyes on, hands off, a very, very similar concept. And also one of the sense I have is that certainly with ESG taking more and more prominence, that boards need to be— you mentioned cybersecurity— have an element of confidence in even navigating these areas or even knowing what questions to ask. But equally, because these are highly complex areas, that confidence may not be there. There may be a sense it’s better just to look the other way or not ask the question. Do you find that a good board will have a culture of embracing a board member that speaks up, for example, as opposed to simply ticks boxes?
Nancy Stern: Yes, yes, I think so. And that’s the part where I think the humility and the vulnerability come in and saying, I’m not an expert on cybersecurity. Could you bring someone in to present to the board that will help us understand what the company is doing and where the vulnerabilities might be. I think that’s the board’s duty to raise the topic, but not to do it in an accusatory or inflammatory way. And I think the best boards are helpful to management, certainly in an oversight role, but in a helpful way.
Aoifinn Devitt: And you’re also involved in a number of other industry and civic groups. Some of those were mentioned in the introduction as well. Can you speak about any of those that are particularly close to your heart?
Nancy Stern: Yes, you know, I really enjoy connecting with other people and trying to find ways to connect people to each other. So getting involved in various different civic groups and professional groups has been a part of that. And then there’s also the element of trying to contribute to causes that I care about. I’m very interested in education as one, and then I got involved with the Anti-Defamation League as their Woman of Achievement honoree in 2018, and I’ve since helped with the planning of that event each year, and that raises money to provide education and support services to prevent hatred. Hate crimes and hate speech that affect people in minority groups, which is something that I believe strongly in. I think it can be difficult, especially for women who are raising a family and have demanding careers, to spend a lot of time in not-for-profit activities. So I try to find ways that I can contribute that have as big of an impact as I can. Given the time that I have available.
Aoifinn Devitt: And just getting back to your personal story now for a few reflections, were there any key people throughout your career whose influence really had a notable effect on either your career trajectory or how you saw the world?
Nancy Stern: Definitely, definitely. And I referred to some of them as I’ve told my story here. I think about my dad helping me get a job at age 15 in a law firm. Knowing that I didn’t really have exposure to lawyers and helping me get that exposure was super helpful. I think about the professor who hired me in law school to be his teaching assistant, which was super meaningful. The partner at my first law firm who helped me transition from being a litigator to being a corporate lawyer, and, and many partners throughout my career, and even more recently at Austin, just Having individual conversations that have opened my eyes to other people’s perspectives, those have all been, I think, really essential to the development of my career.
Aoifinn Devitt: Was there any one piece of advice or word of wisdom that you’ve carried with you from some of these interactions?
Nancy Stern: You know, I can’t think of a particular catchphrase, but my takeaway has really been centered on empathy, centering on what do other people need and want here, and how can I take that into account. I think it’s easy to get off the track by focusing a lot internally and focusing on maybe your idea of expectations, but really trying to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. I think helps with a lot of things. So that’s one thing I focus on.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, I think that’s a very appropriate place to bring our conversation to a close because it is that empathy and that desire to help people, to give back some of the talents that you’ve received and to share what you’ve learned that I really take away from this podcast, which has been a very nuanced and thoughtful discussion of areas that I thought I knew fairly well, having trod it in some of them myself. And you’ve had an extraordinary career, but I think now that your ability to reduce it to some of these very poignant takeaways has been very powerful. So thank you for coming here and for sharing your insights with us.
Nancy Stern: Well, thank you so much for the opportunity. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring lawyers and their stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
