Aoifinn Devitt: This series is brought to you with the kind support of Eversheds Sutherland. As a global top 10 law firm, Eversheds Sutherland provides legal services to a global client base. With more than 3,000 lawyers, the firm operates in over 70 offices in more than 30 countries across Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and the United States. The firm recognizes that having diverse talent across its business brings many benefits. It is committed to accessing a wide range of views, perspectives, and thinking in all of its teams, and in this way is building a culture of inclusion where each person feels able to be their true self at work and reach their full potential. Diversity and inclusion is fundamental to the firm’s purpose of helping their clients, their people, and their communities to thrive, and inclusive is one of its 5 values. Our next guest followed her interests and passions throughout her study of law and expanded to incorporate field trips and periods of study abroad. Hear how she has taken those skills to enable her to find true enjoyment in a responsible investing role at an institutional investor. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Olga Hancock, who’s Deputy Head of Responsible Investment at Church Commissioners for England. She also holds a position of Chair of the Policy Committee at the UK Sustainable Investment and Finance Association and is Co-Chair of the Indonesia workstream of the Investors Policy Dialogue on Deforestation. She previously worked as a solicitor and started her career in Australia. Welcome, Olga. Thanks for joining me today.
Olga Hancock: Thank you very much for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, let’s talk about your background, career journey, and what first interested you in going into law in the first place.
Olga Hancock: Sure. So I grew up about 20 miles north of Sydney on the Northern Beaches in a suburb called Newport, and I decided to go into law because law seemed to be a wonderful key or gateway to the big wide world out there, and it just an opportunity to access the world and the broader world. So I enrolled after a year off after finishing secondary school. I enrolled in a law degree at the University of Sydney, which required a double degree, a little bit similar to the US system. And I’d wanted to study languages in secondary school. I’d focused on languages, but I ended up in a geography lecture because of a timetabling clash. And I was just going to take Geography 101, but that particular year and course awakened me to the climate that an ecological crisis happening around the world that wasn’t really part of common parlance at the time. It was only people who studied, say, environmental science who became exposed to that. It wasn’t in the mainstream media. And I kind of thought, how is this going on and nobody knows about it? So I stayed in geography and majored in that. And in second year, we had a several-month field school in Southeast Asia. And I remember at that field school being quite overwhelmed by the fact that this huge group of people in Asia who were about to enter the, the middle class and the impact that would have on the planet and how that could be done sustainably. So that interest has kind of stayed with me ever since. And then I had to finish law school after that and found a lot of it very dry. So I thought I’d just focus on the subjects which interested me, and I very much focused then on environmental law, international human rights law, criminology, jurisprudence, and I think some of my fellow law students were a little bit puzzled by this. And I was told, you’ll never get a place, you know, a graduate position in one of the big law firms. But I did get a position eventually at Mallesons, now Kingwood and Mallesons, as a graduate role and took that on and worked there for several years. And actually a lot of those subjects lent themselves quite well to the work there. I worked in the resource section where the work I’d done on Indigenous people in the law at university was very helpful. And I also worked in the environment team where I was obviously the environmental law was helpful and had some fantastic opportunities to work in the New South Wales Land and Environment Court. So I had a few roles in environmental law after that, mainly in litigation. And then after my first son was born, I was living in the UK and took on the role leading the global pro bono practice at Simmons Simmons, which I always call my Erin Brockovich job because in that role I felt like every single day I got to fight the good fight. So I spent a lot of time setting up an international land rights practice based on human rights and the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, working with land rights and human rights defenders around the world. And oftentimes they were defending their land against land grabs from large multinational corporations. So that was a fantastic piece of work that lent itself very much to what I’m doing now. And also I worked a lot with an organization called Legal Response International, which Simmons had helped set up, advising least developed and climate vulnerable countries throughout the climate change negotiations from Copenhagen to Paris, and then I was quite involved for a couple of years in the Paris rulebook discussion. So that was my, my legal journey.
Aoifinn Devitt: There’s so much to unpack there, and it’s really fascinating. It’s interesting that those, those roots were laid down so early, and even that the interest in Southeast Asia and the work you do in Indonesia now. And I love also your comment about following those subjects where you were passionate in law school, because I often think that legal analysis is something that’s very open to transferring that skill elsewhere. And I think you probably learned the same skills of research, analysis, reasoning by analogy in environmental law or human rights as you would in commercial law. So it’s very interesting that you were able to apply those skills so easily.
Olga Hancock: Absolutely.
Aoifinn Devitt: And going forward now to your current role, the skills you bring— can you talk about what you do in your current role and maybe the skills you bring from legal training into that?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, sure. So my current role is at the Church Commissioners for England. So I moved into that role almost 3 years ago. So that was an interesting transition because I’d been at Simmons Simmons for about 8 years and was kind of looking at next steps. And it seemed a natural move to go into responsible investment because a lot of the substantive issues which I’ve been dealing with at Simmons had kind of entered the finance industry and becoming very much integrated in the finance industry. So in terms of the skill sets I was able to bring across, I think a lot of the things you just mentioned actually, which carry over from law school. So the first one would be applying critical analysis to issues. So a lot of the time in responsible investment, you’ve got to very quickly critically analyze a very challenging event or issue, whether it be with a company or a broader geopolitical type issue. So the skill sets lawyers have to very quickly cut through issues are incredibly helpful. And that wasn’t something that came naturally to me. I really struggled with that at law school and in the first couple of years of litigation and had to develop that skill set. So now having that skill set, I find that very useful. The second one I’d say is once you’ve worked out what the issues are, to be able to develop a story and a compelling case or narrative around that. Whether you need to convince your trustees or whether you need to convince a company or a policymaker, you need to be able to build a very compelling case and make that evidence-based. So again, the background in law really helps. And then I think the third one would be, as a junior lawyer, I mentioned having to get up in the New South Wales Land and Environment Court and be responsive there and think on my feet. So I think that one, that public speaking on the spot, is also an incredibly helpful skill which I was able to bring across into responsible investment.
Aoifinn Devitt: And now that you’re in this role, it’s clearly at the forefront of everyone’s mind, the issue of sustainability, responsible investment. It’s dominating investment agendas. What issues are you focusing on? What’s forefront of your mind?
Olga Hancock: I think there’s 3 things at the moment which are really critical. One is obviously broader geopolitical issues. And interestingly, again, when I was in the Simmons role, often lawyers would ask me, why should we do this pro bono work in an emerging market? Why does this matter? Why should we be doing this work in these other jurisdictions, whether it be human rights work or anti-corruption? And it wasn’t actually a difficult case to sell with lawyers because I’d just say, well, if the countries you’re working in don’t have don’t have you a rigorous system of rule of law and which allows markets to operate, if you don’t have anti-corruption, if you don’t have enforcement of contract, if the wealth isn’t fairly distributed, the whole system can come crumbling down. So by doing that kind of work in those countries, you’re enabling— you’re facilitating the entire system. And I think we’re seeing that now immediately with investors in terms of the broader geopolitical issues. There’s a realization that if those underlying systems aren’t in place, there’s a house of cards which can come falling down very quickly. So that would be the first one. The second one, which is really interesting, is traditionally there’s been the E, the S, and the G, which have been thought of separately. But I think now that there’s a realization that they’re very much joined up, so they need to be synthesized and then synthesized with the investment analysis as well. So I mean, the prime example is climate. Climate can’t be solved without a just transition for workers. But critical to the climate puzzle is also the issue around carbon sinks and deforestation and biodiversity protection, and also just issues around social inequality, which have risen to the fore now, and the backlash in many Western countries, at least, or the populism occurring, which is really as a result of social inequality. So again, without addressing these kinds of issues, investors are investing in a much less stable world, and we need a stable environment in which to operate. And then I’d say the third one, which we’re looking at at the Commission is very much at the moment are issues around the digital economy and AI and, and seeing that as being the next big transformational change in society and big tech companies, obviously, but AI will be affecting every single company in the digital economy, will affect every single company in the way in which we operate. So that will be the third big one, I think, at the moment.
Aoifinn Devitt: And if you were to look at these areas that you’re working on, are there areas where you’re seeing rapid change and maybe also areas where you think change is not happening quickly enough?
Olga Hancock: I’d kind of take a very high-level approach to that. I think in actual fact what concerns me the most is that the change is happening, happening so rapidly and financial institutions are taking on board ESG so rapidly that what I really see is the issue is not the speed of the change, but ensuring that it’s done properly and that there’s no greenwashing and that foundations are put in place properly because some of these systems will be in place now for decades to come. So we want to ensure there’s blueprints there that are sophisticated that are rigorous, that, you know, the foundations are actually built underneath, or again, we’ll have these house of cards falling down in the ESG space. So I think some of these things are coming about now, you know, this establishment last year of the ISSB, obviously the TCFD is getting mainstreamed around the world or replicated around the world, and now we’re having the TNFD. So that will come about and there’ll be more veracity around the data coming about. But I think it’s really critical sometimes just to take a deep breath ensure things are done thoroughly and properly. So we’re building things up one step at a time. And really, as we mainstream and integrate environmental and social issues into financial processes, we do that thoroughly and properly.
Aoifinn Devitt: And that’s a really interesting point, isn’t it? How we convert dialogue into action, how we actually execute on some of this policy. Maybe in the context of that, if you can talk about your work on the Policy Committee and also the deforestation dialogue committee that you are co-chair?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, absolutely. So UKCIF is doing a fantastic piece of work at the moment, which the team there who are brilliant are overseeing, which has been a large-scale inquiry into net zero in the UK financial sector. And so they’ve been running a series of roundtables with investors in the UK around promoting net zero investment opportunities in the economy, the role of investor stewardship, building a world-leading sustainability disclosures regime, bringing in client savers and communities and ensuring the whole sector’s effective contribution to net zero. So the team is currently synthesizing all the different viewpoints which were brought together as part of that, and we’ll shortly be releasing the findings as a policy package. So that’s been a really exciting piece of work to oversee. And then the IPDD is also another exciting piece of work. So that stands for the Investor Policy Dialogue on Deforestation, and I co-chair the Indonesia work stream, and that was a large group of investors over 50 signed up now who came together in the summer of 2020 when there was very rapid deforestation in the Amazon in Brazil. And a letter, a joint letter was sent to the Brazilian government, which they responded to and opened up a direct dialogue, which has been very much ongoing for over two or almost two years now. And later in 2020, a workstream was opened up around Indonesia. Again, there was a piece of legislation legislation coming in called the Omnibus Regulation, which was to encourage investment. And there was a concern that some of the fantastic gains that have been made in Indonesia around decreasing deforestation might be watered down through that legislation. So we, we sought to engage with the Indonesian government on that. And again, a dialogue has been opened up now for 18 months with the Indonesian government around deforestation and broader sustainability issues. Issues.
Aoifinn Devitt: And in connection with something like, say, deforestation, which is clearly a massive issue and where progress may be frustratingly slow just due to some of the counterparties we’re dealing with, what kind of personality traits do you need, or what kind of attitude or approach do you find you need to, I suppose, stay the course in an area where progress can be slow?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, that’s a really good question, because often with these things, particularly around climate— and when I worked in the, the UN climate negotiations, it was always two steps forward, one step back, two forward, one step back over not just weeks or months but usually years. So, um, you do need perseverance. I think I’d go back to something my, my father said when I first joined the workforce, which is just to focus on the work and not the politics. And I think the first couple of years I wasn’t sure that that was the best advice he’d given me, because oftentimes I thought, well, if I were playing the politics here, I could probably do a lot better. But in the longer term, that advice really paid off, because I think in the long term people really appreciate the quality of your work if you’re focusing on that and doing it well, but you also establish much longer-term collaborations and networks. So a lot of the networks and collaborations I’ve established over many years I’ve been able to carry forward into this role. And I think again that advice applies to the work in itself, because if you very much just focus on the work and focus on the quality of your work, in the long term, that does pay off. And be it two steps forward, one step back, over time you see there is progress. So just focusing on what’s immediately in front of you and doing a good job of that and ensuring a good work product means that over the long term there will be results.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s very similar to a question I asked some of the international criminal law practitioners on this series, because they would have similar issues— tribunals that go on for that can be kind of scuppered by international policy or politics. But the difference with your area is that you also mentioned the areas where there’s very quick progress ostensibly being made, say around trying to put in place policy almost too quickly. So it’s an interesting kind of juxtaposition of speed on one hand, too much speed perhaps, and then not enough speed on the other. So an interesting challenge. And then one last aspect, you mentioned how integrated all the ESG points are. And one of the major issues that comes out of maybe the S and the G is around diversity. Diversity. And you’ve worked in both the legal profession, now the investment profession. Any thoughts from you in terms of how you’ve seen the diversity in the various professional settings that you’ve worked in?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think when you’re when at— I was at school and university in Australia, at least, I was less aware of diversity and gender issues. And it’s once you hit the workplace that these issues kind of become real and you see them play out and affecting people’s lives in real time. So I think things have changed over time, but, but again, that’s one where it’s quite slow and hasn’t changed probably as quickly as they should have. I think something more recently which I think has been fantastic is I don’t actually think over the time I’ve been in the workplace women have changed that much. And sorry, I’m looking from a gender lens because that’s the one I can relate to. I think the things women would like in the workplace have remained the same, and, and demands about being able to work and also raise a family, and that there should be no questions around being able to carry out a professional role and to do that. That’s all stayed the same. What I think I am optimistic about though is that men seem to be changing. The new generation of men seem to be changing their behaviors, and I’m seeing a lot more men go on longer-term parental leave now, and they’re juggling childcare responsibilities with their partners. And so I think that’s where the change will come from. It’s men changing. So I think that finally is starting to happen. That’s, that’s what I’d say is very positive.
Aoifinn Devitt: Just getting back to some personal reflections now, have you had a mentor or key people in your career or even outside your career who’ve influenced you that you would like to mention?
Olga Hancock: Not so much within my career, but I did want to speak about my aunt who influenced me greatly. And this goes back to the gender issue, actually. So my Auntie Lorna, who was my father’s sister, who sadly passed away when I was 10, was quite a pioneer in her field. So she’d gone to a girls’ school in Sydney in the late 1950s, and she always loved animals. So my father had grown up with animals all around the house, and all she wanted to do was become a vet. But the headmistress at the school she went to wouldn’t give her a reference, and she got very good grades nonetheless and applied to get into vet school but wasn’t awarded a scholarship, even though her grades should have been given one, because they were only going to men. But then one of the men who were awarded the scholarship dropped out, and so she was given the scholarship and was allowed to go to vet school. And was one of only 2 women in the year. So she had to deal with a very male-dominated environment. And then at the end of her time in vet school, she wasn’t able to take up the scholarship with the district veterinary officers that had been part of the scholarship system. So she was put in a regional tick station for 6 months, which was obviously not what she’d wanted to do. And then in the end had to move all the way to Perth to get a job at an animal hospital, which she absolutely loved, and then went into vet practice after that. But I mentioned her for two reasons. First of all, it’s only one generation behind that had to deal with this kind of belief that women weren’t even allowed to have basic doors open just to simply do something they enjoyed doing, which seems quite straightforward now. But also, she was a role model to me because she just basically said, well, you just throw yourself into these male-dominated fields and don’t be afraid and just get in there and do it. And, you know, I found over the years you do end up in rooms full of men. So I just remember that, that you’ve just you’ve got got to throw yourself in there and not worry about that and get on with it.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s so true, isn’t it? The previous generations, there weren’t even the words, the structures around these issues. They just got on with it. Well, it certainly seems like she was a true inspiration and not the only strong woman in your family, cuz I know that there was a LinkedIn comment, which our listeners can go uh, and, and search a LinkedIn post around your grandmother as well. So it seems like you come from a long series of strong women.
Olga Hancock: That’s right. My grandmother written war diaries actually throughout World War II. So she was a nurse working in Sydney during that time, and my grandfather had gone off first to fight in the Middle East and then in the Pacific. And so she kept a very detailed diary, but my aunts and uncles discovered that when she passed away and had the diary next to her desk. So it was typed up and put in the— I think it was the People’s Archive, like a war archive in Australia. So I had a hard copy of that sitting on my bookshelf. So with the challenge events in Europe in recent weeks. I’ve been reading through that diary and finding a lot of parallels, but also finding it quite haunting but reassuring as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: I have a similar diary from my great-grandfather who actually died in World War I, but in that case it was a very patchy sort of almost notes diary, but still it’s wonderful to have those type of things to remember, just to think that the struggles that have gone before for us. My final question is around any piece of advice that you’ve received that you can pass on, or any creed or motto that you live by.
Olga Hancock: So the one I think goes to work and enjoying the workforce and finding something you’re passionate about, and a lot of the questions you’ve asked earlier. So I mentioned I took a year off between secondary school and starting university and went on a Rotary exchange to Norway, and I was spending a a lot of time thinking about what I would do in life, and a lot of the Norwegians said to me, well, you just have to find this thing called arbeitsglæde. And that just is a very Scandinavian concept. It just translates basically to getting enjoyment out of work. And my understanding is that in Scandinavia, people just look for roles or jobs that they get enjoyment out of or get pleasure out of. So I think that kind of was a little bit of a North Star in terms of my career, in, in terms of just find something you really enjoy, that at the end of the day that’s what really matters. And I know that can be a little bit challenging in these days with high student debts, et cetera. But I think ultimately, if you’re heading in that direction and just trying to find something you enjoy and getting enjoyment out of your day every day, then everything else builds itself around that.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, that is a wonderful motto for us to take with us. And certainly it’s something that I’ve taken away from our conversation. Thank you so much, Olga. Your passion is quite evident. And I think it has— we can trace it now going right back and the work you’re doing now at the Church Commissioners as well. As on UKCIF and on the Deforestation Policy Dialogue Committee. I will put links to that in the show notes, and I’ve really enjoyed our discussion. I think you’ve really brought to life how legal skills can be used in many different ways.
Olga Hancock: Thank you very much for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring lawyers and their personal stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for information only and should not be construed as investment or legal advice. All views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: This series is brought to you with the kind support of Eversheds Sutherland. As a global top 10 law firm, Eversheds Sutherland provides legal services to a global client base. With more than 3,000 lawyers, the firm operates in over 70 offices in more than 30 countries across Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and the United States. The firm recognizes that having diverse talent across its business brings many benefits. It is committed to accessing a wide range of views, perspectives, and thinking in all of its teams, and in this way is building a culture of inclusion where each person feels able to be their true self at work and reach their full potential. Diversity and inclusion is fundamental to the firm’s purpose of helping their clients, their people, and their communities to thrive, and inclusive is one of its 5 values. Our next guest followed her interests and passions throughout her study of law and expanded to incorporate field trips and periods of study abroad. Hear how she has taken those skills to enable her to find true enjoyment in a responsible investing role at an institutional investor. I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to this 50 Faces focus series, which showcases the richness and diversity of inspiring people in the law. I’m joined today by Olga Hancock, who’s Deputy Head of Responsible Investment at Church Commissioners for England. She also holds a position of Chair of the Policy Committee at the UK Sustainable Investment and Finance Association and is Co-Chair of the Indonesia workstream of the Investors Policy Dialogue on Deforestation. She previously worked as a solicitor and started her career in Australia. Welcome, Olga. Thanks for joining me today.
Olga Hancock: Thank you very much for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, let’s talk about your background, career journey, and what first interested you in going into law in the first place.
Olga Hancock: Sure. So I grew up about 20 miles north of Sydney on the Northern Beaches in a suburb called Newport, and I decided to go into law because law seemed to be a wonderful key or gateway to the big wide world out there, and it just an opportunity to access the world and the broader world. So I enrolled after a year off after finishing secondary school. I enrolled in a law degree at the University of Sydney, which required a double degree, a little bit similar to the US system. And I’d wanted to study languages in secondary school. I’d focused on languages, but I ended up in a geography lecture because of a timetabling clash. And I was just going to take Geography 101, but that particular year and course awakened me to the climate that an ecological crisis happening around the world that wasn’t really part of common parlance at the time. It was only people who studied, say, environmental science who became exposed to that. It wasn’t in the mainstream media. And I kind of thought, how is this going on and nobody knows about it? So I stayed in geography and majored in that. And in second year, we had a several-month field school in Southeast Asia. And I remember at that field school being quite overwhelmed by the fact that this huge group of people in Asia who were about to enter the, the middle class and the impact that would have on the planet and how that could be done sustainably. So that interest has kind of stayed with me ever since. And then I had to finish law school after that and found a lot of it very dry. So I thought I’d just focus on the subjects which interested me, and I very much focused then on environmental law, international human rights law, criminology, jurisprudence, and I think some of my fellow law students were a little bit puzzled by this. And I was told, you’ll never get a place, you know, a graduate position in one of the big law firms. But I did get a position eventually at Mallesons, now Kingwood and Mallesons, as a graduate role and took that on and worked there for several years. And actually a lot of those subjects lent themselves quite well to the work there. I worked in the resource section where the work I’d done on Indigenous people in the law at university was very helpful. And I also worked in the environment team where I was obviously the environmental law was helpful and had some fantastic opportunities to work in the New South Wales Land and Environment Court. So I had a few roles in environmental law after that, mainly in litigation. And then after my first son was born, I was living in the UK and took on the role leading the global pro bono practice at Simmons Simmons, which I always call my Erin Brockovich job because in that role I felt like every single day I got to fight the good fight. So I spent a lot of time setting up an international land rights practice based on human rights and the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, working with land rights and human rights defenders around the world. And oftentimes they were defending their land against land grabs from large multinational corporations. So that was a fantastic piece of work that lent itself very much to what I’m doing now. And also I worked a lot with an organization called Legal Response International, which Simmons had helped set up, advising least developed and climate vulnerable countries throughout the climate change negotiations from Copenhagen to Paris, and then I was quite involved for a couple of years in the Paris rulebook discussion. So that was my, my legal journey.
Aoifinn Devitt: There’s so much to unpack there, and it’s really fascinating. It’s interesting that those, those roots were laid down so early, and even that the interest in Southeast Asia and the work you do in Indonesia now. And I love also your comment about following those subjects where you were passionate in law school, because I often think that legal analysis is something that’s very open to transferring that skill elsewhere. And I think you probably learned the same skills of research, analysis, reasoning by analogy in environmental law or human rights as you would in commercial law. So it’s very interesting that you were able to apply those skills so easily.
Olga Hancock: Absolutely.
Aoifinn Devitt: And going forward now to your current role, the skills you bring— can you talk about what you do in your current role and maybe the skills you bring from legal training into that?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, sure. So my current role is at the Church Commissioners for England. So I moved into that role almost 3 years ago. So that was an interesting transition because I’d been at Simmons Simmons for about 8 years and was kind of looking at next steps. And it seemed a natural move to go into responsible investment because a lot of the substantive issues which I’ve been dealing with at Simmons had kind of entered the finance industry and becoming very much integrated in the finance industry. So in terms of the skill sets I was able to bring across, I think a lot of the things you just mentioned actually, which carry over from law school. So the first one would be applying critical analysis to issues. So a lot of the time in responsible investment, you’ve got to very quickly critically analyze a very challenging event or issue, whether it be with a company or a broader geopolitical type issue. So the skill sets lawyers have to very quickly cut through issues are incredibly helpful. And that wasn’t something that came naturally to me. I really struggled with that at law school and in the first couple of years of litigation and had to develop that skill set. So now having that skill set, I find that very useful. The second one I’d say is once you’ve worked out what the issues are, to be able to develop a story and a compelling case or narrative around that. Whether you need to convince your trustees or whether you need to convince a company or a policymaker, you need to be able to build a very compelling case and make that evidence-based. So again, the background in law really helps. And then I think the third one would be, as a junior lawyer, I mentioned having to get up in the New South Wales Land and Environment Court and be responsive there and think on my feet. So I think that one, that public speaking on the spot, is also an incredibly helpful skill which I was able to bring across into responsible investment.
Aoifinn Devitt: And now that you’re in this role, it’s clearly at the forefront of everyone’s mind, the issue of sustainability, responsible investment. It’s dominating investment agendas. What issues are you focusing on? What’s forefront of your mind?
Olga Hancock: I think there’s 3 things at the moment which are really critical. One is obviously broader geopolitical issues. And interestingly, again, when I was in the Simmons role, often lawyers would ask me, why should we do this pro bono work in an emerging market? Why does this matter? Why should we be doing this work in these other jurisdictions, whether it be human rights work or anti-corruption? And it wasn’t actually a difficult case to sell with lawyers because I’d just say, well, if the countries you’re working in don’t have don’t have you a rigorous system of rule of law and which allows markets to operate, if you don’t have anti-corruption, if you don’t have enforcement of contract, if the wealth isn’t fairly distributed, the whole system can come crumbling down. So by doing that kind of work in those countries, you’re enabling— you’re facilitating the entire system. And I think we’re seeing that now immediately with investors in terms of the broader geopolitical issues. There’s a realization that if those underlying systems aren’t in place, there’s a house of cards which can come falling down very quickly. So that would be the first one. The second one, which is really interesting, is traditionally there’s been the E, the S, and the G, which have been thought of separately. But I think now that there’s a realization that they’re very much joined up, so they need to be synthesized and then synthesized with the investment analysis as well. So I mean, the prime example is climate. Climate can’t be solved without a just transition for workers. But critical to the climate puzzle is also the issue around carbon sinks and deforestation and biodiversity protection, and also just issues around social inequality, which have risen to the fore now, and the backlash in many Western countries, at least, or the populism occurring, which is really as a result of social inequality. So again, without addressing these kinds of issues, investors are investing in a much less stable world, and we need a stable environment in which to operate. And then I’d say the third one, which we’re looking at at the Commission is very much at the moment are issues around the digital economy and AI and, and seeing that as being the next big transformational change in society and big tech companies, obviously, but AI will be affecting every single company in the digital economy, will affect every single company in the way in which we operate. So that will be the third big one, I think, at the moment.
Aoifinn Devitt: And if you were to look at these areas that you’re working on, are there areas where you’re seeing rapid change and maybe also areas where you think change is not happening quickly enough?
Olga Hancock: I’d kind of take a very high-level approach to that. I think in actual fact what concerns me the most is that the change is happening, happening so rapidly and financial institutions are taking on board ESG so rapidly that what I really see is the issue is not the speed of the change, but ensuring that it’s done properly and that there’s no greenwashing and that foundations are put in place properly because some of these systems will be in place now for decades to come. So we want to ensure there’s blueprints there that are sophisticated that are rigorous, that, you know, the foundations are actually built underneath, or again, we’ll have these house of cards falling down in the ESG space. So I think some of these things are coming about now, you know, this establishment last year of the ISSB, obviously the TCFD is getting mainstreamed around the world or replicated around the world, and now we’re having the TNFD. So that will come about and there’ll be more veracity around the data coming about. But I think it’s really critical sometimes just to take a deep breath ensure things are done thoroughly and properly. So we’re building things up one step at a time. And really, as we mainstream and integrate environmental and social issues into financial processes, we do that thoroughly and properly.
Aoifinn Devitt: And that’s a really interesting point, isn’t it? How we convert dialogue into action, how we actually execute on some of this policy. Maybe in the context of that, if you can talk about your work on the Policy Committee and also the deforestation dialogue committee that you are co-chair?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, absolutely. So UKCIF is doing a fantastic piece of work at the moment, which the team there who are brilliant are overseeing, which has been a large-scale inquiry into net zero in the UK financial sector. And so they’ve been running a series of roundtables with investors in the UK around promoting net zero investment opportunities in the economy, the role of investor stewardship, building a world-leading sustainability disclosures regime, bringing in client savers and communities and ensuring the whole sector’s effective contribution to net zero. So the team is currently synthesizing all the different viewpoints which were brought together as part of that, and we’ll shortly be releasing the findings as a policy package. So that’s been a really exciting piece of work to oversee. And then the IPDD is also another exciting piece of work. So that stands for the Investor Policy Dialogue on Deforestation, and I co-chair the Indonesia work stream, and that was a large group of investors over 50 signed up now who came together in the summer of 2020 when there was very rapid deforestation in the Amazon in Brazil. And a letter, a joint letter was sent to the Brazilian government, which they responded to and opened up a direct dialogue, which has been very much ongoing for over two or almost two years now. And later in 2020, a workstream was opened up around Indonesia. Again, there was a piece of legislation legislation coming in called the Omnibus Regulation, which was to encourage investment. And there was a concern that some of the fantastic gains that have been made in Indonesia around decreasing deforestation might be watered down through that legislation. So we, we sought to engage with the Indonesian government on that. And again, a dialogue has been opened up now for 18 months with the Indonesian government around deforestation and broader sustainability issues. Issues.
Aoifinn Devitt: And in connection with something like, say, deforestation, which is clearly a massive issue and where progress may be frustratingly slow just due to some of the counterparties we’re dealing with, what kind of personality traits do you need, or what kind of attitude or approach do you find you need to, I suppose, stay the course in an area where progress can be slow?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, that’s a really good question, because often with these things, particularly around climate— and when I worked in the, the UN climate negotiations, it was always two steps forward, one step back, two forward, one step back over not just weeks or months but usually years. So, um, you do need perseverance. I think I’d go back to something my, my father said when I first joined the workforce, which is just to focus on the work and not the politics. And I think the first couple of years I wasn’t sure that that was the best advice he’d given me, because oftentimes I thought, well, if I were playing the politics here, I could probably do a lot better. But in the longer term, that advice really paid off, because I think in the long term people really appreciate the quality of your work if you’re focusing on that and doing it well, but you also establish much longer-term collaborations and networks. So a lot of the networks and collaborations I’ve established over many years I’ve been able to carry forward into this role. And I think again that advice applies to the work in itself, because if you very much just focus on the work and focus on the quality of your work, in the long term, that does pay off. And be it two steps forward, one step back, over time you see there is progress. So just focusing on what’s immediately in front of you and doing a good job of that and ensuring a good work product means that over the long term there will be results.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s very similar to a question I asked some of the international criminal law practitioners on this series, because they would have similar issues— tribunals that go on for that can be kind of scuppered by international policy or politics. But the difference with your area is that you also mentioned the areas where there’s very quick progress ostensibly being made, say around trying to put in place policy almost too quickly. So it’s an interesting kind of juxtaposition of speed on one hand, too much speed perhaps, and then not enough speed on the other. So an interesting challenge. And then one last aspect, you mentioned how integrated all the ESG points are. And one of the major issues that comes out of maybe the S and the G is around diversity. Diversity. And you’ve worked in both the legal profession, now the investment profession. Any thoughts from you in terms of how you’ve seen the diversity in the various professional settings that you’ve worked in?
Olga Hancock: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think when you’re when at— I was at school and university in Australia, at least, I was less aware of diversity and gender issues. And it’s once you hit the workplace that these issues kind of become real and you see them play out and affecting people’s lives in real time. So I think things have changed over time, but, but again, that’s one where it’s quite slow and hasn’t changed probably as quickly as they should have. I think something more recently which I think has been fantastic is I don’t actually think over the time I’ve been in the workplace women have changed that much. And sorry, I’m looking from a gender lens because that’s the one I can relate to. I think the things women would like in the workplace have remained the same, and, and demands about being able to work and also raise a family, and that there should be no questions around being able to carry out a professional role and to do that. That’s all stayed the same. What I think I am optimistic about though is that men seem to be changing. The new generation of men seem to be changing their behaviors, and I’m seeing a lot more men go on longer-term parental leave now, and they’re juggling childcare responsibilities with their partners. And so I think that’s where the change will come from. It’s men changing. So I think that finally is starting to happen. That’s, that’s what I’d say is very positive.
Aoifinn Devitt: Just getting back to some personal reflections now, have you had a mentor or key people in your career or even outside your career who’ve influenced you that you would like to mention?
Olga Hancock: Not so much within my career, but I did want to speak about my aunt who influenced me greatly. And this goes back to the gender issue, actually. So my Auntie Lorna, who was my father’s sister, who sadly passed away when I was 10, was quite a pioneer in her field. So she’d gone to a girls’ school in Sydney in the late 1950s, and she always loved animals. So my father had grown up with animals all around the house, and all she wanted to do was become a vet. But the headmistress at the school she went to wouldn’t give her a reference, and she got very good grades nonetheless and applied to get into vet school but wasn’t awarded a scholarship, even though her grades should have been given one, because they were only going to men. But then one of the men who were awarded the scholarship dropped out, and so she was given the scholarship and was allowed to go to vet school. And was one of only 2 women in the year. So she had to deal with a very male-dominated environment. And then at the end of her time in vet school, she wasn’t able to take up the scholarship with the district veterinary officers that had been part of the scholarship system. So she was put in a regional tick station for 6 months, which was obviously not what she’d wanted to do. And then in the end had to move all the way to Perth to get a job at an animal hospital, which she absolutely loved, and then went into vet practice after that. But I mentioned her for two reasons. First of all, it’s only one generation behind that had to deal with this kind of belief that women weren’t even allowed to have basic doors open just to simply do something they enjoyed doing, which seems quite straightforward now. But also, she was a role model to me because she just basically said, well, you just throw yourself into these male-dominated fields and don’t be afraid and just get in there and do it. And, you know, I found over the years you do end up in rooms full of men. So I just remember that, that you’ve just you’ve got got to throw yourself in there and not worry about that and get on with it.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s so true, isn’t it? The previous generations, there weren’t even the words, the structures around these issues. They just got on with it. Well, it certainly seems like she was a true inspiration and not the only strong woman in your family, cuz I know that there was a LinkedIn comment, which our listeners can go uh, and, and search a LinkedIn post around your grandmother as well. So it seems like you come from a long series of strong women.
Olga Hancock: That’s right. My grandmother written war diaries actually throughout World War II. So she was a nurse working in Sydney during that time, and my grandfather had gone off first to fight in the Middle East and then in the Pacific. And so she kept a very detailed diary, but my aunts and uncles discovered that when she passed away and had the diary next to her desk. So it was typed up and put in the— I think it was the People’s Archive, like a war archive in Australia. So I had a hard copy of that sitting on my bookshelf. So with the challenge events in Europe in recent weeks. I’ve been reading through that diary and finding a lot of parallels, but also finding it quite haunting but reassuring as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: I have a similar diary from my great-grandfather who actually died in World War I, but in that case it was a very patchy sort of almost notes diary, but still it’s wonderful to have those type of things to remember, just to think that the struggles that have gone before for us. My final question is around any piece of advice that you’ve received that you can pass on, or any creed or motto that you live by.
Olga Hancock: So the one I think goes to work and enjoying the workforce and finding something you’re passionate about, and a lot of the questions you’ve asked earlier. So I mentioned I took a year off between secondary school and starting university and went on a Rotary exchange to Norway, and I was spending a a lot of time thinking about what I would do in life, and a lot of the Norwegians said to me, well, you just have to find this thing called arbeitsglæde. And that just is a very Scandinavian concept. It just translates basically to getting enjoyment out of work. And my understanding is that in Scandinavia, people just look for roles or jobs that they get enjoyment out of or get pleasure out of. So I think that kind of was a little bit of a North Star in terms of my career, in, in terms of just find something you really enjoy, that at the end of the day that’s what really matters. And I know that can be a little bit challenging in these days with high student debts, et cetera. But I think ultimately, if you’re heading in that direction and just trying to find something you enjoy and getting enjoyment out of your day every day, then everything else builds itself around that.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, that is a wonderful motto for us to take with us. And certainly it’s something that I’ve taken away from our conversation. Thank you so much, Olga. Your passion is quite evident. And I think it has— we can trace it now going right back and the work you’re doing now at the Church Commissioners as well. As on UKCIF and on the Deforestation Policy Dialogue Committee. I will put links to that in the show notes, and I’ve really enjoyed our discussion. I think you’ve really brought to life how legal skills can be used in many different ways.
Olga Hancock: Thank you very much for having me.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to our 50 Faces Focus Series. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring lawyers and their personal stories, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for information only and should not be construed as investment or legal advice. All views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations of the host or any guest.
